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Why exactly is it so cumbersome to use the multitude of charging networks?

PastyPilgrim

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The R1T is my first EV and my home charger is ChargePoint (via my apartment complex) which has been fairly straightforward given Rivian's partnership and the integration with the Rivian app (other than an annoyingly long wait time from charger selection to its activation/unlock), but I did a roadtrip a few weeks ago and still can't get over how seemingly unnecessarily complex it is to use other networks. In New England I've encountered: ChargePoint, EVGo, Flo, EA, and Enel X.

Why does every charger need its own app, accounts, and payment information? Each time I encountered a new charger it was a terrible experience to need to sit there for 20 minutes trying to download an app on e.g. backwoods Vermont cellular data, then trying to create an account as I jump between apps, email, texts, web, etc. trying to verify everything, then of course they don't just work via Google/Apple Pay and require manually adding credit cards to your account, and of course there's the sitting and waiting for things to go through, activate/unlock, verify, etc. Not to mention the times I went through all of that just to find that the charger's internet connection isn't working and can't be activated regardless. And now of course I'm getting random charge cards in the mail and some apps require preloading your account with money and all these other hassles.

Imagine needing to download apps and create accounts for Shell, BP, Citgo, Speedway, etc. just to pump gas. I can't for the life of me figure out why you can't just tap your credit card and go. Please tell me there's some sane reason for all of this nonsense other than data collection.
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hayduke

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I feel your frustration. I do remember before pay-at-the-pump was ubiquitous and some stations (Mobil, I believe) offered little RFID fobs for your key chain that you could use the pay at the pump (this was maybe late 90s, east coast). It seemed so novel at the time.

The EV charger network today reminds me of this state of things. You forgot to mention how bad the software is on the chargers themselves. The best network for me so far has been Electrify America, but at their stations the touch screen takes 2-4 seconds to register a button press, making you think it is broken and often leading to many false and incorrect taps. Once charging the screen slowly rotates between information you think could just always be on screen (% charged, rate of charge in kW, time remaining etc). Not to mention the time estimates seem wildly inaccurate and jump from small numbers to large numbers. Maybe part of this is the rate of charge seems to fluctuate for reasons other than battery SOC.

And as you mention this only happens if you can get the charger to work at all.

I for one just don't understand how these companies are going to make money. I went on a 300+ road trip last weekend, and paid less than $35 for charging along the way, which frankly isn't a lot of revenue to justify all this fancy equipment and software. I'm honestly amazed it worked at all.

Now when are they going to get windshield squeegies or maybe a pay by the minute vacuum so you could clean out the car while you're otherwise waiting. So many missed business opportunities...
 

Taco

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This 100%.

All of these damn companies should offer Plug and Charge, hell I would be fine if it was a plug and charge where my saved CC info was sent so it was just like a gas station. If you want to be a member or whatever the monthly charge things are that's fine, make an account with them and STILL DO plug and charge but know that this vin is tied to a account that gets a different rate.

Tesla got it right from the start, add a CC to your account, plug it in and charge.

Still a lot of work to do, but I'm pretty sure ALL of these companies could enable plug and charge.
 

Davethadog

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There seems to be that capability with chargepoint in the rivian app no? Will the EVA become the hub accessing these networks via their own APIS?
 
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PastyPilgrim

PastyPilgrim

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I for one just don't understand how these companies are going to make money. I went on a 300+ road trip last weekend, and paid less than $35 for charging along the way, which frankly isn't a lot of revenue to justify all this fancy equipment and software. I'm honestly amazed it worked at all.
I'm surprised you think that; to me it seems like an incredible investment. There's already power everywhere, you don't need to order/replenish any materials, you don't need anyone to man your station, you don't need a ton of space (just a parking spot), your costs are incredibly fixed and resilient, there's quite a bit of leeway for pricing given that you basically just need to be cheaper than gas to keep people happy, etc.

Like, you spend a couple thousand for some electrical work and hardware, set your price to price of electricity + 20% or whatever, and suddenly you're making 20% on nothing in perpetuity. The only unknown/cost is maintaining the station when it breaks, but that's another thing that surprised me; how are these stations so unreliable when they're basically a glorified outlet?

It already sounds like a good deal but then, like you mentioned, there's such an opportunity for additional income by offering goods and services. Even just having a vending machine at your charger seems like a no-brainer since I'm likely to spend a few bucks on a drink if I need to sit there for 30 minutes.
 

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CommodoreAmiga

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Like, you spend a couple thousand for some electrical work and hardware, set your price to price of electricity + 20% or whatever, and suddenly you're making 20% on nothing in perpetuity. The only unknown/cost is maintaining the station when it breaks, but that's another thing that surprised me; how are these stations so unreliable when they're basically a glorified outlet?
L2 stations are just glorified outlets, but those tend to be incredibly reliable and affordable, already. It’s the DCFC stations that have reliability issues — but they are much more than a “glorified” outlet. They have expensive circuitry and massive power requirements. Those stations easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (some a million+) to build out.
 

hayduke

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All of these damn companies should offer Plug and Charge, hell I would be fine if it was a plug and charge where my saved CC info was sent so it was just like a gas station. If you want to be a member or whatever the monthly charge things are that's fine, make an account with them and STILL DO plug and charge but know that this vin is tied to a account that gets a different rate.
Honest question, is this feasible/secure with the CCS standard? Ie would it be trivial for me to write firmware that fakes your VIN and charge my car to your account? The Electrify America stations work with a normal credit card like a gas station. I have heard plug & charge discussed for EA but wonder if they are doing anything other than verify the VIN from the car.


It’s the DCFC stations that have reliability issues — but they are much more than a “glorified” outlet. They have expensive circuitry and massive power requirements. Those stations easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (some a million+) to build out.
Right. Forgetting equipment cost, they need to get interconnection to utilities and often pay huge fees.

I'm fascinated how the power output will vary over time for reasons that have nothing to do with the vehicle (in fact the Rivian will say power limited by charging station). I'm curious if this is due to the utility not providing the power, the power electronics or on site equipment having trouble keeping up or some other issue. it's no small feat to deliver 200kW to your car on demand, often in rural/remote places. Again I'm impressed they work as well as they do which is sort of OK most of the time.
 

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Honest question, is this feasible/secure with the CCS standard? Ie would it be trivial for me to write firmware that fakes your VIN and charge my car to your account? The Electrify America stations work with a normal credit card like a gas station. I have heard plug & charge discussed for EA but wonder if they are doing anything other than verify the VIN from the car.




Right. Forgetting equipment cost, they need to get interconnection to utilities and often pay huge fees.

I'm fascinated how the power output will vary over time for reasons that have nothing to do with the vehicle (in fact the Rivian will say power limited by charging station). I'm curious if this is due to the utility not providing the power, the power electronics or on site equipment having trouble keeping up or some other issue. it's no small feat to deliver 200kW to your car on demand, often in rural/remote places. Again I'm impressed they work as well as they do which is sort of OK most of the time.
Real plug 'n charge uses signed certificates to transact your information. Both sides of the transaction need to know how to deal with them.

The stuff that GM is doing with EVGo sounds like it's MAC based, which could be spoofed, but I'm not sure if they are doing additional verification through phone location or something. If I still had a GM EV that supported DCFC I would be looking into it deeper.
 

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L2 stations are just glorified outlets, but those tend to be incredibly reliable and affordable, already. It’s the DCFC stations that have reliability issues — but they are much more than a “glorified” outlet. They have expensive circuitry and massive power requirements. Those stations easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (some a million+) to build out.
Tesla was reportedly 100-170k in 2013, now it is reportedly under 43k, including all costs/permitting/etc.
 

ajdelange

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I'm curious if this is due to the utility not providing the power, the power electronics or on site equipment having trouble keeping up or some other issue. it's no small feat to deliver 200kW to your car on demand,
It's all of the above but the biggest factor is demand. To serve one car at 200 kW means the station must have 200 kW service but to serve 4 at a peak demand of 200kW each simultaneously requires 800 kW service which is obviously 4 times larger and much more expensive. But as 4 cars all drawing their peak demands at the same time is unlikely they will install perhaps 250 kW service and limit the total draw for the station to that level. May tariffs include punitive "demand charges" for demands above a level specified in the contract. It is to avoid those that many stations limit their total draw. The ability to do this is part of the CCS standard.
 

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I did my first DCFC yesterday. I only did it to ensure my new truck didn't have any issues with DCFC like a few random unlucky owners had before I went on a long trip. There is a very new EVgo station at a Sheetz with 350kW chargers. Couldn't connect through the Rivian app. I had downloaded several of the usual company apps on my phone, but apparently never actually created an account for EVgo. So I just decided to use the credit card. And it worked just like a gas pump. Well other than a gas pump is card, then insert pump. This is insert cord, then card. Either way, same number of steps and just as convenient.

Charge itself was outstanding. I started at 27%. Ramped almost immediately to 211-212 kW. Held that until a Walmart delivery EV pulled in to the 350 kW charger instead of the empty 150 kW charger next to me. She plugged in and drew 73 kW to her van, and my truck immediately limited to 173 kW because of the charger. Held that all the way to >60% then never tapered lower than 120s-130s by my 70% target. Used 62.6 kWh, 61.5 of which went to the battery adding a little over 140 miles of range in 23 minutes. So the add 140 miles in 20 minutes is absolutely doable. I had just installed the OTA update that morning. This station is 0.30c/min, so bill was only $6.90. That much gas in my Fusion hybrid getting close to 40 mpg would have been around $15. I'll take that.

Bottom line, the pull up, plug, and insert credit card option for this EVgo 350 kW charger worked just as conveniently as a gas pump.

200 mile trip later this week will include a stop at an Electrify America unit.
 

CommodoreAmiga

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Tesla was reportedly 100-170k in 2013, now it is reportedly under 43k, including all costs/permitting/etc.
That must be amortized over many stations and many locations, which are all cherry-picked for efficient installation cost.

Several other sources indicate costs are much higher for non-Tesla Supercharger installations.

EVGo, for example, says a 350kW DCFC costs $128k-150k for the equipment. Transformer upgrades, which are often necessary, run from $35k-173k. https://www.evgo.com/blog/dcfc-cost-components-much-more-than-electricity/

The US Department of Energy says DCFC units cost $10k-40k, but they don't specify the kW, so it's probable that number is skewed low by 50kW and other "meh" DCFC options. DoE says installation ranges from $4k-51k, not including permitting or "additional municipal requirements". Not hard to see how we get into six figures for a DCFC using US DoE numbers. https://afdc.energy.gov/case/2832

Here is a real-world quote a business owner received for installation of a 50kW DCFC. This is a SLOW unit and is not the kind of DCFC that people actually want to rely on for road trips. Costs for the "good stuff" is going to be higher. Even so, the quote is still north of $100k.



Something else to consider is that not every location is equally easy to install at. We're reaching decent saturation of DCFC where installation is easy and use is high (shorter ROI). Where we really need to focus efforts is putting chargers where installation isn't as convenient and ROI isn't as quick. Costs will be higher.
 

ajdelange

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I for one just don't understand how these companies are going to make money. I went on a 300+ road trip last weekend, and paid less than $35 for charging along the way, which frankly isn't a lot of revenue to justify all this fancy equipment and software.
I question that too. The most successful charging network in the world is obviously Tesla's and they created it as a marketing tool - not as a revenue producer. Musk has said that it was never intended to be (it used to be free to all Tesla drivers) and never would be a profit center. And yet these non Tesla networks charge about the same per kWh as Tesla does (Tesla is no longer free). It doesn't compute.
 

gd_r1t

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I'm surprised you think that; to me it seems like an incredible investment. There's already power everywhere, you don't need to order/replenish any materials, you don't need anyone to man your station, you don't need a ton of space (just a parking spot), your costs are incredibly fixed and resilient, there's quite a bit of leeway for pricing given that you basically just need to be cheaper than gas to keep people happy, etc.

Like, you spend a couple thousand for some electrical work and hardware, set your price to price of electricity + 20% or whatever, and suddenly you're making 20% on nothing in perpetuity. The only unknown/cost is maintaining the station when it breaks, but that's another thing that surprised me; how are these stations so unreliable when they're basically a glorified outlet?

It already sounds like a good deal but then, like you mentioned, there's such an opportunity for additional income by offering goods and services. Even just having a vending machine at your charger seems like a no-brainer since I'm likely to spend a few bucks on a drink if I need to sit there for 30 minutes.
DCFC’s can cost $50k just the hardware, and another $50k on the electrical infrastructure. Then the peak demand utility fees are very expensive too.
 

dduffey

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That must be amortized over many stations and many locations, which are all cherry-picked for efficient installation cost.

...

Something else to consider is that not every location is equally easy to install at. We're reaching decent saturation of DCFC where installation is easy and use is high (shorter ROI). Where we really need to focus efforts is putting chargers where installation isn't as convenient and ROI isn't as quick. Costs will be higher.
I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but did want to highlight that it is possible to have much lower DCFC install costs at scale (as Tesla has proven).

In regards to the 40k, they are not cherry picked. Cherry picking is 30k and this article says "at most 43k". That includes non-Tesla charging. So average is somewhere in between and Tesla has been under 50k since at least 2016 / 8 years.

$1M+ is cherry picking, sounds like a hydrogen station.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-superchargers-revealed-one-fifth-competition/
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