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riviancanucknb

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Things we need to know

- What highways is the active driving enabled on?

- Who is their technology partner? They aren't building it themselves. Knowing the partner can help figure out what it is and is not vs marketing.

- Do they ever plan software update to Full Self Driving? Or will you have to buy a new vehicle?

So far I'm less than impressed with the capabilities outlined because unless I am driving on one of these white-listed highways that they are not releasing a list of, all of the Driver+ features exist in my $30K Honda which has 1/4 the hardware. They better be planning software updates to get to FSD.
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Tesla FSD is fraud. It is a cash cow for the company. Emails between the California DOT and Tesla earlier this year revealed that Tesla admitted they can not currently meet level 3 of autonomics driving. Yet Tesla continues to advertise "soon" and milk up to 10K per new orders for this. in 2018 the CEO claimed "soon a Model S will self drive itself across the country". Not even close. The AutoPilot still has issues with random braking, no auto lane change, over pass bridges and lane recognition especially when lane marking is missing like at exit ramps.
 

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Tesla FSD is fraud. It is a cash cow for the company. Emails between the California DOT and Tesla earlier this year revealed that Tesla admitted they can not currently meet level 3 of autonomics driving. Yet Tesla continues to advertise "soon" and milk up to 10K per new orders for this. in 2018 the CEO claimed "soon a Model S will self drive itself across the country". Not even close. The AutoPilot still has issues with random braking, no auto lane change, over pass bridges and lane recognition especially when lane marking is missing like at exit ramps.
You are 100% correct. A complete fraud.
 

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I have advanced AutoPilot on my Tesla, so it changes lanes on the highway by itself. It’s one of my most favorite features about the car. Agree that phantom braking is a big pain in the a$$, and that FSD is a cash grab for now. I just picked up a new GM vehicle this week with Supercruise which I imagine Driver + will be similar to? Overall, the GM product keeps a more steady line in the lanes, allows for hands free operation and can switch lanes with manual intervention. I still think I like advanced Autopilot better, but might be a familiarity bias at this point. I will say Teslas simplicity on clicking the stalk to engage is more convenient then GM hitting 2 buttons.
 

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- Do they ever plan software update to Full Self Driving? Or will you have to buy a new vehicle?
They used to claim they'd do an OTA update to provide Level 3 automation. That verbiage was removed from their website, last year. I believe that coincided with the news that LIDAR hardware was also being removed from the design.

Given those two facts, I think it's extremely unlikely that the R1, as launched, will ever have more than Level 2 automation.

So far I'm less than impressed with the capabilities outlined because unless I am driving on one of these white-listed highways that they are not releasing a list of, all of the Driver+ features exist in my $30K Honda which has 1/4 the hardware. They better be planning software updates to get to FSD.
I think your assessment is unfair. I've driven (and owned) many Honda products, and their LKAS+ACC is useable, but far from class-leading. I think "average" is about the nicest thing I could say about it.

Also, it is my understanding that Rivian will have LKAS+ACC available on ALL roadways. My understanding is that only the more advanced Driver+ features -- which Honda does not have, at all -- will require you to be on a supported highway. This is similar to how GM SuperCruise works.

More advanced features would be things like navigation-based automatic steering, Lange changes, not having to hold the wheel, adjust speed not only by radar/ACC but also by traffic-sign-recognition, etc.
 
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riviancanucknb

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Given those two facts, I think it's extremely unlikely that the R1, as launched, will ever have more than Level 2 automation.
This is exactly my fear. That what is there at launch is basically what it will remain forever.
I think your assessment is unfair. I've driven (and owned) many Honda products, and their LKAS+ACC is useable, but far from class-leading. I think "average" is about the nicest thing I could say about it.
I never said it was class-leading. My point is that LKAS+ACC is basically a commodity feature now that anyone can expect as a low cost option on any new car.
More advanced features would be things like navigation-based automatic steering, Lange changes, not having to hold the wheel, adjust speed not only by radar/ACC but also by traffic-sign-recognition, etc.
But on what roads? They don't say. I doubt I will be able to use it around here.. thus it has no value to me.


The AutoPilot still has issues with random braking, no auto lane change, over pass bridges and lane recognition especially when lane marking is missing like at exit ramps.
Who cares what it is now? They point is Tesla continues to update all of their vehicles with software patches on a regular basis to eventually release FSD without you having to buy another car. that is what I am asking.

Rivian appears to be saying, "what you see is what you get" since they are saying nothing about future Driver+ updates.

The current beta Tesla FSD release is amazingly advanced, going far beyond what Rivian is advertising with Driver+ with full navigation down city streets.

If I am dropping $100K on a vehicle I want to understand if it has a lifespan longer than1 -2 years, because as soon as reliable FSD is available any car that doesn't have it will seem like an antique.

If Rivian would say who their technology partner was or any of their future plans, it would help assuage fears.

EDIT: Also I don't think anyone who says that Tesla FSD is a "cash grab" understands how revenue recognition rules work. Tesla legally can not, and does not, recognize any of the revenue coming from FSD down payments, until the feature is fully released. They can only recognize small portions of it.
 
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Amdolan

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This is exactly my fear. That what is there at launch is basically what it will remain forever.

I never said it was class-leading. My point is that LKAS+ACC is basically a commodity feature now that anyone can expect as a low cost option on any new car.

But on what roads? They don't say. I doubt I will be able to use it around here.. thus it has no value to me.



Who cares what it is now? They point is Tesla continues to update all of their vehicles with software patches on a regular basis to eventually release FSD without you having to buy another car. that is what I am asking.

Rivian appears to be saying, "what you see is what you get" since they are saying nothing about future Driver+ updates.

The current beta Tesla FSD release is amazingly advanced, going far beyond what Rivian is advertising with Driver+ with full navigation down city streets.

If I am dropping $100K on a vehicle I want to understand if it has a lifespan longer than1 -2 years, because as soon as reliable FSD is available any car that doesn't have it will seem like an antique.

If Rivian would say who their technology partner was or any of their future plans, it would help assuage fears.

EDIT: Also I don't think anyone who says that Tesla FSD is a "cash grab" understands how revenue recognition rules work. Tesla legally can not, and does not, recognize any of the revenue coming from FSD down payments, until the feature is fully released. They can only recognize small portions of it.
This article from Electrek seems to indicate Rivian will be providing updates to Driver+ via OTA updates. I think that makes sense even though it may not be explicitly stated on Rivian’s website.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electr...dates-how-does-each-ev-automaker-compare/amp/
 

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An important thing to note about Driver+ is that Rivian plans to offer insurance discounts for using it.

This obviously demonstrates their confidence in the capability, and I think we'll be happy with it. How will it compete with Autopilot/FSD/SuperCruise/BlueCruise? That's TBD, but I expect it may take some time to get parity with those.

However, another interesting thing to ponder is Amazon's involvement & vested interest both with their investment in Rivian and in functionality for their vans. They've made other investments in the autonomous driving space, warehouse robots, etc, so don't sleep on their involvement.
 

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Billyk24

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This is exactly my fear. That what is there at launch is basically what it will remain forever.

I never said it was class-leading. My point is that LKAS+ACC is basically a commodity feature now that anyone can expect as a low cost option on any new car.

But on what roads? They don't say. I doubt I will be able to use it around here.. thus it has no value to me.



Who cares what it is now? They point is Tesla continues to update all of their vehicles with software patches on a regular basis to eventually release FSD without you having to buy another car. that is what I am asking.

Rivian appears to be saying, "what you see is what you get" since they are saying nothing about future Driver+ updates.

The current beta Tesla FSD release is amazingly advanced, going far beyond what Rivian is advertising with Driver+ with full navigation down city streets.

If I am dropping $100K on a vehicle I want to understand if it has a lifespan longer than1 -2 years, because as soon as reliable FSD is available any car that doesn't have it will seem like an antique.

If Rivian would say who their technology partner was or any of their future plans, it would help assuage fears.

EDIT: Also I don't think anyone who says that Tesla FSD is a "cash grab" understands how revenue recognition rules work. Tesla legally can not, and does not, recognize any of the revenue coming from FSD down payments, until the feature is fully released. They can only recognize small portions of it.
Tesla beta fsd is not what you claim. There is a reason why it is still beta. No evidence it can be pulled and used outside anywhere in the country. Tesla Dmiited so much with the California dot. As for the cash cow, they collect the dough, do not deliver what is stated as soon and keep the dough. Show me the official Tesla records that the money is not earning interest or put trust elsewhere
I wait for such inside information.
 

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EDIT: Also I don't think anyone who says that Tesla FSD is a "cash grab" understands how revenue recognition rules work. Tesla legally can not, and does not, recognize any of the revenue coming from FSD down payments, until the feature is fully released. They can only recognize small portions of it.
How is it not a cash grab? They ask for the money up front with the promise of giving you something for it in the future. Whether or not they recognize the revenue, the money is sitting in their bank account, not yours. Then, they constantly raise the price on it because eventually the service is supposed to be revenue generating, tricking you into buying it long before it's ready because otherwise it's going to cost a lot more later.

While some people may be looking to keep their cars for the long term, others prefer to get a new one every 3-4 years. Tesla has been selling Full Self Driving for at least that long, despite the service still not being released and earlier cars requiring major hardware updates (albeit free if you've already bought the service) before it can be enabled. How would you feel if you paid for Full Self Driving up front and then traded your car in before you ever got any benefit from it? Try asking Tesla for your money back or for a free transfer to your next car and see if it feels like a cash grab then.
 

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Tesla FSD is both a fraud and a cash-grab.

It's a fraud because Tesla promises features to the customer that they never intend to deliver. This has been confirmed, in written communications from Tesla to the US government. An agency (I forget who, exactly -- maybe DOT?) asked Tesla to clarify it's intent with "Full Self Driving" and Tesla confirmed that it will ONLY ever be a Level 2 system and will NEVER be Level 3+. This is contrary to what most customers THINK they are buying into.

It's a cash-grab because Tesla is charging significant money ($10k, IIRC) for features they never intend to deliver within the lifetime of the vehicle. In fact, some owners who paid for FSD have already moved on to their next vehicle (many staying within the Tesla brand) and Tesla is refusing to allow customers to roll their FSD to their new vehicles. Those customers paid a lot of money for the promise of features that were never delivered.
 

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Tesla FSD is both a fraud and a cash-grab.

It's a fraud because Tesla promises features to the customer that they never intend to deliver. This has been confirmed, in written communications from Tesla to the US government. An agency (I forget who, exactly -- maybe DOT?) asked Tesla to clarify it's intent with "Full Self Driving" and Tesla confirmed that it will ONLY ever be a Level 2 system and will NEVER be Level 3+. This is contrary to what most customers THINK they are buying into.

It's a cash-grab because Tesla is charging significant money ($10k, IIRC) for features they never intend to deliver within the lifetime of the vehicle. In fact, some owners who paid for FSD have already moved on to their next vehicle (many staying within the Tesla brand) and Tesla is refusing to allow customers to roll their FSD to their new vehicles. Those customers paid a lot of money for the promise of features that were never delivered.
Tesla admitted to the California DOT in 2021 about only being level 2 capable. There was a thread on this in the Tesla owners forum. Some Tesla vehicles have had two or more owners and each owner has paid for FSD on the same vehicle. A real cash cow for the company.
 

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More advanced features would be things like navigation-based automatic steering, Lange changes, not having to hold the wheel, adjust speed not only by radar/ACC but also by traffic-sign-recognition, etc.
I just got a Mach E and it has speed sign recognition in the basic LKAS/ACC. That feature can be selected on or off. Hands off BlueCruise is supposed to get enabled later this year.
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