What If?

[Canthoney]

There has been talk about bringing back federal tax credits for manufacturers that make over 200k cars, as well as other credits, which would also be good for Rivian. So companies like Tesla, GM, and Nissan will be back in play. Would you consider cars from those companies if the credits came back?

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[electruck]

Nothing that has been revealed to date.

 

[thrill]

Without getting too political (I don’t really care if you are a Biden or Trump voter). If Biden were to win he has talked about bringing back federal tax credits for manufacturers that make over 200k cars, as well as other credits, which would also be good for Rivian. So companies like Tesla, GM, and Nissan will be back in play. My main point would is would you consider cars from those companies if the credits came back?

The "problem" this creates is it removes some of the incentive to purchase an EV from a startup, making it all that much harder for small companies to compete with the entrenched, and those larger companies remain generally unaggressive about jumping into the EV world - even with the tax credit companies such as BMW mostly sat on their asses about competing in the EV arena (I love my i3s, and while its range is *sufficient*, it is NOT *competitive*). Much better IMO would be to leave the total vehicle limits in effect, to provide significant tax credits to (small) companies making EV components, and to find creative ways to greatly subsidize rapid expansion of the EV charging networks.

 

[Canthoney]

The "problem" this creates is it removes some of the incentive to purchase an EV from a startup, making it all that much harder for small companies to compete with the entrenched, and those larger companies remain generally unaggressive about jumping into the EV world - even with the tax credit companies such as BMW mostly sat on their asses about competing in the EV arena (I love my i3s, and while its range is *sufficient*, it is NOT *competitive*). Much better IMO would be to leave the total vehicle limits in effect, to provide significant tax credits to (small) companies making EV components, and to find creative ways to greatly subsidize rapid expansion of the EV charging networks.

From what I have read from Biden‘s plan, he would incentivize manufacturers who build with American parts and manufacture in the US, so that would obviously benefit Rivian. I’m sure a lot of this would be subject to congressional approval, but it’s interesting nevertheless.

I don’t think the credits are a problem because every other country, who are serious about renewables, have some kind of subsidized pricing, although I don’t know if they cap It based on sales numbers.

 

[DucRider]

I’m sure a lot of this would be subject to congressional approval, but it’s interesting nevertheless.

ALL of it would be up to Congress as it is incorporated into the Tax Code. Although Presidential use of "Executive Orders" has been expanded and used for purposes never originally intended, changing the Tax Code is still beyond the scope of that tool.
The President can certainly push for these programs and help shape them, ultimately it is up to Congress to enact them.
Currently, only GM and Tesla have reached the 200K mark. The original intent of the 200K limit before a gradual phase out was to help companies recoup some of the R&D costs associated with getting an EV program up and running by effectively reducing the net cost to the consumer. But the program was poorly designed in a number of ways and the criticism that it primarily benefits the wealthy is not without merit.
I'd like to see a revamp with the Federal Incentive available as a point of sale rebate, with a gradually reducing amount for vehicles over $50K (eliminated at $80K? $100K?)

 

[ajdelange]

It's kind of hard to beat the argument that the wealthy benefit from tax relief as it is the wealthy that pay the taxes.

 

[Canthoney]

Ah.......Me thinks you possibly have an agenda here, or you could have asked the question this way and get the results you wanted:

Without getting too political (I don’t really care if you are a Biden or Trump voter). If Biden were to win he has talked about bringing back federal tax credits for manufacturers that make over 200k cars, as well as other credits, which would also be good for Rivian. So companies like Tesla, GM, and Nissan will be back in play. My main point would is would you consider cars from those companies if the credits came back?

And why would you want this information?

Whenever you get federal tax credits, free healthcare, free tuition, free birth control, free daycare, free anything......someone has to pay. It may be free to some, but not to others. You think ICE owners want to share in paying for EV Federal Tax Credits? Anyone that can afford to buy a Rivian, to crawl around rocks and go on rough trails with a luxury vehicle, can afford to buy one without the tax credit anyway. After all, in order to take full advantage of the tax credit, you need to owe at least that same liability to the IRS, otherwise it does you no good.

Being you brought up Biden, my understanding is he will do away with the Trump tax cuts, increase corporation tax from 21% to 28% and increase the Capital Gains tax. All which will take money out of the consumers pocket and probably decrease the value of your 401K Plans. Seems to me a person wouldn't gain anything by savings on purchasing an EV, then losing it elsewhere.....if Biden were elected.

I have no problem deleting my post, if you would like to rephrase your question.

Yep, this is what I was afraid of.

No, I do not have an agenda here, I see either the status quo with the reelection of Trump for current EV credits, or an expansion of EV tax credits with Biden, with the possibility of eliminating the production cap of 200k. Nothing more, and nothing less. I don’t agree personally with anything else Biden has proposed in terms of his economic plan.

In terms of the EV tax credits you’re not really getting free money (I.e. higher taxes) like you suggest with healthcare, college, etc..., you’re just reducing your tax liability (if you owe it). It is akin to Amazon going to get tax credits to bring their second headquarters to New York. New Yorkers weren’t paying to have them come, Amazon was just paying no taxes on in the area for a period of time. So now instead of New York gaining the benefit of payroll taxes, sales tax, etc.. for more employees living there they’re back to zero for that area and gain nothing.

 

[ajdelange]

... bringing back federal tax credits for manufacturers that make over 200k cars, as well as other credits, which would also be good for Rivian. So companies like Tesla, GM, and Nissan will be back in play. My main point would is would you consider cars from those companies if the credits came back?

The theory behind the credit was that a new car manufacturer is not going to have the economies of scale that he will, if successful, later realize. Thus, to keep his head above water he must charge more for his early production than he will, if successful, eventually be able to. This makes his offering less attractive to prospective buyers. If the government subsidize part of that additional cost to the consumer the new manufacturer can charge that higher price and still be competitive. This has worked with Tesla. If the intent stays the same then clearly the subsidy should not be restored for successful volume manufacturers.

But the subsidy has other potential societal benefits in addition to encouraging BEV startups. It can encourage more of the population to adopt BEVs. If that becomes the intent then the subsidy should be available to anyone making a BEV.

 

[St Bernard]

I have to strongly agree with everything you said. Especially since “ the Virus ending is just around the corner”. I also think people making over $400k should pay lower taxes and the Corporate Tax should be lower Or maybe even eliminated.

 

[ajdelange]

Less money coming into the government is generally "recouped" by creating it via the several mechanisms government has for doing that without you realizing what they are doing. Henry Ford once said words to the effect that if the populace understood how the country's monetary system worked there would be riots in the streets. Of course, now that I think of it, there are riots in the streets that have nothing to do with fiat currency.

 

[Canthoney]

If not, you might want to consider my suggestion and remove mentioning political candidates. I'll gladly remove my posts, or the moderator can. Makes no difference to me.



Yes, this is less tax money collected by the IRS, that will need to be recouped by the IRS through other means, mainly taxes, that someone will need to pay. You now have this money to spend freely, or save, instead of paying the tax......you owe it, they give it back.

I think you and I may have a different idea of how taxes work philosophically, but that’s neither here nor there. I changed the original message.

 

[Jmiller929]

The "problem" this creates is it removes some of the incentive to purchase an EV from a startup, making it all that much harder for small companies to compete with the entrenched, and those larger companies remain generally unaggressive about jumping into the EV world - even with the tax credit companies such as BMW mostly sat on their asses about competing in the EV arena (I love my i3s, and while its range is *sufficient*, it is NOT *competitive*). Much better IMO would be to leave the total vehicle limits in effect, to provide significant tax credits to (small) companies making EV components, and to find creative ways to greatly subsidize rapid expansion of the EV charging networks.

It depends who wins, may not be safe safe to buy anything. I am afraid of what might happen to already fragile economy.

 

[cc84]

I think you and I may have a different idea of how taxes work philosophically, but that’s neither here nor there. I changed the original message.

Thank you.

 

[sevengroove]

It looks like the expanded tax credit ($7k after 200k vehicles sold) might actually happen for Tesla and GM under the GREEN Act: https://insideevs.com/news/487380/tesla-400k-7000-dollar-ev-tax-credits-green-act/

 

[Eeyore]

I also think people making over $400k should pay lower taxes and the Corporate Tax should be lower Or maybe even eliminated.

COMPLETELY disagree. People making over $400K should pay way higher percentage tax rates and Corporate taxes should be raised.

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