VERY DISAPPOINTED!!! No 400+ battery until Jan. 2022?!?!?!

[skyote]

Possibly. I guess that really depends on how much has to change versus how long it will take them to complete the redesign.

On that note, with overall length growing slightly (for the 2nd time now) I had initially assumed that might have been related to supporting the 3 row 180. But it appears the wheelbase is unchanged so I'm guessing the extra length is related to front/rear bumper tweaks. Which leaves us to wonder just exactly how they will package the batteries in the 3 row 180.

I personally think it would be in Rivian's best interest to allow people to request the 180 configuration for the R1S, as it will help them gauge the true demand. If they have hard numbers to work from, they might be able to either prioritize the engineering for it or build a special trade up program around it like you mentioned.

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[skyote]

This was the most unnecessary question ever asked on this forum.

Holy smokes, I literally laughed out loud!

Update (several minutes after original post) - I'm still laughing.

 

[jdhiker23]

They are obviously working on the "packaging" to accommodate both the 180 pack and the 3rd row. The 180 pack was already more of a challenge in the R1S than the R1T due to the shorter wheelbase & frame length.

I take this as a positive in that they heard the feedback from the customer base desiring the longer range WITH 3rd row. They won't want to use unique pack and/or packaging designs dependent on whether or not 3rd row is included, thus the wait until they finalize the design.

I’ll throw out three theories (pure speculation and in decreasing order of probability in my opinion):

Theory #1: The long range 400m R1S will have a smaller than 180 kWh pack, but enough to get the EPA range just barely over 400 miles with the 21” tires on the R1S.
Here’s my logic for theory #1:

• They heard the feedback on people wanting both 3rd row seats and long range, so they had to do something, but the 180kWh pack would take up the foot well space for the third row, so they had to come up with an alternative.
• The R1S is projected to get slightly better range than the R1T, so if the 180 pack gets at least 400 miles for the R1T, then the R1S could get 400 miles with a slightly smaller pack that leaves space for a footwell (Others can do the math and suggest what that size might be - I’m just suggesting it’s less than 180 kWh and suggesting we won’t hear them ever say the kWh of the long range version moving forward)
• This would require a redesign of the pack, and possibly thermal management and BMS if they aren’t simply dropping in another standardized battery pack as they originally planned with the five seat option. Thus the delay to availability of the R1S and different availability vs the R1T, which can use the original 180kWh configuration. As skyote notes, having a different battery configuration for 5 vs 7 seats adds complexity they don’t want to manage, so even if you don’t want the third row you will have to wait for the battery redesign/reconfiguration.
• With a smaller than originally planned pack, I think they want to get the official EPA range for the 135 kWh R1S before committing to a 400+ mile range for the larger pack, because they are likely going to be cutting it close (think 404 miles is still 400+). Thus the comment about it only being available after production begins (and EPA numbers are out on the final production vehicles).

Theory #2:
Long range R1S will use the spare tire well for the additional battery space and they need to figure out how to meet legal requirements around this (eg no spare vs put the spare in the frunk if they have to).

And now an even wilder theory #3:
The long range version will see a switch to a new cell format (e.g. 4680) having a higher energy density than the current cells and therefore fitting 400 miles worth of capacity while using the same interior and seat design as the 135 kWh version. However, this clearly requires both a supplier being ready with the new cells in volume and a complete redesign of their battery packs and BMS, followed by extensive testing, thus the reason we won’t be able to select this option or get any timelines when the configurator goes live.

 

[azbill]

So an average of 176 kW, likely more at times depending on taper, and obviously more if Rivian's consumption numbers are above 420 Wh/mi.

Do you have a reference on the 300 kW charging rate? @azbill might be interested in seeing that. I recalled reading it somewhere, but don't have a link.

I know about the 300KW number thrown out by RJ. At the time he also stated 10% to 90% SOC in 35-40 minutes. From that, I estimated on another thread that put the taper point at 50-55% SOC. But, I must clarify, I assumed this was only for a 180KWh battery.

I like comparing time to get 100 miles, so here is my math:

100 * 420Wh/mile = 42KW
At 300Kw that is .14 hour, or 8.4 minutes, this is good, but does not match some later statements made, such as 200 miles in 30 minutes.

But, there is still something to be answered from Rivian. For the 300KW charging, is that really for all battery sizes? I have some doubts about that. Using the original KWh battery specs, that would be a C rating of:

1) 300KW/105KWh = 2.86C
2) 300KW/135KWh = 2.22C
3) 300KW/180KWh = 1.66C

The higher the C rating of the charge, the harder it is on the battery, and the sooner taper has to start, in order to preserve battery life. I feel that the 1.66C charging rate to at least 50% SOC is not an issue, but the smaller batteries would have to taper sooner.

 

[ajdelange]

If you go back and look at just the segment of the interview linked in the earlier post you will find that he mumbled quite a bit about peak charging etc. Do keep in mind that charging is controlled by the car and it can have whatever it wants as long as that is within the envelope of the charger. A Rivian truck can get 300 kW from an HPC350 compliant charger but not from one that meets HPC250.

Rivian isn't going to respond to your questions about charge rate. That you will find by monitoring current and voltage as a function of SoC during an actual charging session.

Note that at Tesla SuperChargers the taper point is not the same from charge to charge nor is the charge curve perfectly trapezoidal.

 

[electruck]

Since you will now be able to get the R1s with the 180 pack and 7 seats

This is NOT a safe assumption. Pay careful attention to Rivian's wording. They are no longer committing to a 400+ mile range for the R1S in either 5 or 7 seat configs. Only range greater than the 135 kWh pack. See my post here for additional thoughts regarding what they are now communicating on their web site and via chat.

 

[Vern Bybee]

I was upset until I started researching
Have you looked at available charging stations
Second extra weight
How often are you going to need that big battery
They always had a plan for a removable jerry can
Now that I have considered the 300 mile battery
I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT GETTING ALL THAT EXTRA WEIGHT

 

[Vern Bybee]

I was upset
Now after researching
Extremely happy I am not getting the extra weight
So many charging stations now and more coming every day
Think about trying to get that extra weight up that steep hill
We know the 135Kw can tackle Oldsmobile hill
Would the extra weight be to much?

I did some soul searching
LIKE WAS DEPRESSED
When I got the news
NOW I FEEL I DODGED A $10,000 Bullet

 

[aAlpine]

I called it back in Oct: https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...update-6th-place-finish.678/page-3#post-11134

175kW charger(s) on the course and an R1T with a 135kWh battery. I'm surprised it's not the 180kWh pack. I now wonder if that isn't yet ready and worry it won't be for 2021 launch.

I think either a) design isn't ready b) tech isn't ready, or c) supply issues.

I'm calling it now, the 300 miles of claimed range will be just like other EVs: under the best of conditions. Especially offroad, just look at Emme's review from the Rebelle. There's no reason to think otherwise, "under promise and over deliver" means nothing compared to physics.

My other prediction, the 400 mile battery won't have a price in the Configurator. I hope I'm wrong.

I might be a bit jaded now.

 

[ajdelange]

I was upset
Now after researching
Extremely happy I am not getting the extra weight

Why is that? The extra battery weight means lower center of gravity, mud traction in icky conditions etc. Given regenerative braking the "penalty" for the extra weight is going to be very small.

Think about trying to get that extra weight up that steep hill

Think about getting the great majority of the energy back when coming down the hill.

We know the 135Kw can tackle Oldsmobile hill
Would the extra weight be to much?

No.

I did some soul searching
LIKE WAS DEPRESSED
When I got the news
NOW I FEEL I DODGED A $10,000 Bullet

You are trying way to hard to convince yourself that this bad news is good news. As a non BEV driver you should mourn the loss of range based on range anxiety. As a BEV driver you should mourn it based on the loss of flexibility it causes.

 

[aAlpine]

My other prediction, the 400 mile battery won't have a price in the Configurator. I hope I'm wrong.

I was wrong 10k option in the configurator. I think that's fair, still just sad it won't be available for some time, but I guess there's the benefit of seeing others iron out the bugs. I'm disappointed there's no perk like free wheel upgrades for us that want the large battery and are willing to pay for it.

 

[Babbuino]

I was wrong 10k option in the configurator. I think that's fair, still just sad it won't be available for some time, but I guess there's the benefit of seeing others iron out the bugs. I'm disappointed there's no perk like free wheel upgrades for us that want the large battery and are willing to pay for it.

I guess if you are willing to pay for it then you can afford the options

 

[Kolbs11]

I guess if you are willing to pay for it then you can afford the options

I would be more than willing to pay the $10k for the larger battery life on the R1S. For me, the dilemma is the unknown. Will there be a larger battery pack for the R1S? Will it fit with the 5 passenger AND the 7 passenger? It's frustrating to try and configure a vehicle when you only get one option for battery life, compared to what we thought we were getting.

 

[DucRider]

I would be more than willing to pay the $10k for the larger battery life on the R1S. For me, the dilemma is the unknown. Will there be a larger battery pack for the R1S? Will it fit with the 5 passenger AND the 7 passenger? It's frustrating to try and configure a vehicle when you only get one option for battery life, compared to what we thought we were getting.

In your position, I'd configure a 400 mile R1T as a placeholder and switch to whatever version of the R1S makes sense later.

 

[Kolbs11]

In your position, I'd configure a 400 mile R1T as a placeholder and switch to whatever version of the R1S makes sense later.

That's an interesting idea that I hadn't thought about. Thanks!

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