V2H Bi-Directional Charging

BigE

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I saw a few of us had an interest in using our Rivian's as battery backup for our homes, especially for areas prone to storms and power outages. I found this product today and I've reached out to the company to see if it's actually on the market yet. This unit can deliver up to 10 kW peak power which would be enough to run my house and say with a 180 kW R1T, for several days. See the attached PDF from Delta Electronics (Americas), Ltd





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electrictaco

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The charger you posted uses CHAdeMO and won't be compatible with the CCS1 port on Rivians. As far as I know, there are no bi-directional CCS1 chargers available because the vehicles and the charging standard don't support it yet.
 
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BigE

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I asked Rivian about V2H and sent them this particular device...below is Rivian’s response.

Hello Eric,

Thank you for the reply, and though using a Rivian as a "power wall" is possible, however, we will be sharing more details about Rivian vehicles and their charging capabilities soon. I'll be sure to follow up if any additional insight is available, in the meantime please share any feedback you receive from the manufacturer in regards to this matter.

I hope you enjoy your weekend, and we'll talk soon.

Your fellow adventurer,
Bryan
 

hola29

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I have thought about this too...does not seem to be a great fit to me. During a power outage, you then cannot drive somewhere without killing power. If you are on a trip your house will lose power (happened to me, lost fridge and a gold fish). If you want to use TOU and use battery when prices are high, the continued use of your car battery would degrade it faster...I know its extra money, but I think, at least for me, a dedicated battery (Enphase for example) + Solar panels is a better fit.

I asked Rivian about V2H and sent them this particular device...below is Rivian’s response.

Hello Eric,

Thank you for the reply, and though using a Rivian as a "power wall" is possible, however, we will be sharing more details about Rivian vehicles and their charging capabilities soon. I'll be sure to follow up if any additional insight is available, in the meantime please share any feedback you receive from the manufacturer in regards to this matter.

I hope you enjoy your weekend, and we'll talk soon.

Your fellow adventurer,
Bryan
 

DucRider

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I have thought about this too...does not seem to be a great fit to me. During a power outage, you then cannot drive somewhere without killing power. If you are on a trip your house will lose power (happened to me, lost fridge and a gold fish). If you want to use TOU and use battery when prices are high, the continued use of your car battery would degrade it faster...I know its extra money, but I think, at least for me, a dedicated battery (Enphase for example) + Solar panels is a better fit.
We average about 15 kWh/day - including EV charging.
Using 4 or 5 kWh for load shaving wouldn't do much to stress the battery, equivalent to driving 10-15 miles in a Rivian.
And having the capability to power the house during an outage is beneficial.
If you travel often and outages ar not that rare, a dedicated battery might be better. But for many Rivian owners, V2H would add significant value.
V2L will be a stop gap - can at least power the fridge/freezer from the included outlets. Moght even be able to power the gas furnace (blower) if it is cold.
 

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I agree, there is not a downside per se, other than every time you drive somewhere in a power outage your power goes out again. It's more that companies like Enphase, and Tesla (powerwall side), are working very sophisticated energy management solutions. Choosing to go off grid, TOU algorithms, generator integration, solar integration, dedicated reporting, circuit priority, etc. They have been working on it for a decade and 100's of millions in dedicated R&D spending as well as real customers using their solution to iterate on.

I guess my point is sure, Rivian could be a battery, but that is not is designed function. So maybe partnering with on of these firms, but as some sort of stand alone solution does not make sense to me.

(EDIT) Unless they have some sort of energy management solution they are planning to unveil or partnership as I mention. But they probably have their hands full getting the cars ready. We'll see!

We average about 15 kWh/day - including EV charging.
Using 4 or 5 kWh for load shaving wouldn't do much to stress the battery, equivalent to driving 10-15 miles in a Rivian.
And having the capability to power the house during an outage is beneficial.
If you travel often and outages ar not that rare, a dedicated battery might be better. But for many Rivian owners, V2H would add significant value.
V2L will be a stop gap - can at least power the fridge/freezer from the included outlets. Moght even be able to power the gas furnace (blower) if it is cold.
 
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BigE

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Update: Delta Electronics (Americas) called me back. They said the Delta V2X will not be available for another year in the US. My situation maybe a very specific need. I live on the coast in NC. It seems we get a least 1 hurricane a year that will take out power for 2-4 days. In our area, and installed NG whole house generator runs ~$15K. I have my poor man's set up with my small 7.5 kW portable that I've converted to NG so I can power most everything or alternate devices so all is well. During the pandemic, I took time to install solar but did not put in batteries as I have Net Metering with the power company, no availability of direct Tesla Powerwalls, so I was looking at $30k for 2 PW's, simply not worth the cost in my mind. With this setup, say Hurrican X comes, power is out, next 3-4 days, the sun is shining, I have 9.4 kW in solar, but because I don't have battery back up I can't use my solar. If I had my 180 kW R1T sitting in my garage hooked to a V2H, my solar would be operational, and I could access all that power in the R1T to get me through when the grid gets fired back up. Thus, my R1T now takes place of a $30,000 (2 pack) PowerWall and my R1T will cost ~$20 to charge back up after the storm. This would be awesome!

Also, when Hurrican's occur in our area, the city is under an Emergency state and no travel in or out is allowed, so I'm "sheltering in place" not traveling anywhere.
 

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I guess my point is sure, Rivian could be a battery, but that is not is designed function. So maybe partnering with on of these firms, but as some sort of stand alone solution does not make sense to me.
They aren't "going it alone". CharIn is establishing standard as part of ISO 15118 and the CCS standard.
https://www.charin.global/media/pag...2583/charin_levels__grid_integration_v5.2.pdf
You will be able to plug any EV into a CCS V2G/H system and utilize it as you would a dedicated battery - it will be a useful part of it's designed function.
 

hola29

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My point is there are sophisticated whole energy management solutions right now that integrate batteries, solar, generators, TOU, offgrid, ongrid, charging patterns, circuit priority, load balancing...etc.

I having seen the Enphase system up close, it is incredible...Maybe this charging company will compete with $635B Tesla, $22B Enphase, $14B Solaredge, and $5.6B Sunpower creating a compelling home energy management solution, but I would like to see it first.

Maybe I am missing your point though...little confused. I am not saying potentially using your car as your main battery may not come down the pipe, and maybe the companies I just mentioned do it, because some, like Enphase do a killer job with their own battery...

I guess it comes down to preference. I would much prefer a dedicated battery than use my car, because I would like to use the grid as backup (ex-charging car when I want to use grid) to certain extent. I am actually in the process of designing a system for my house now.

They aren't "going it alone". CharIn is establishing standard as part of ISO 15118 and the CCS standard.
https://www.charin.global/media/pag...2583/charin_levels__grid_integration_v5.2.pdf
You will be able to plug any EV into a CCS V2G/H system and utilize it as you would a dedicated battery - it will be a useful part of it's designed function.
 

Ladiver

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I am in the process of adding 2 Tesla Powerwalls to my home. I already have solar (6.8 kW) and will be pretty close to zero reliance on the grid. It will be interesting to see how adding the Rivian will change this.
 

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My point is there are sophisticated whole energy management solutions right now that integrate batteries, solar, generators, TOU, offgrid, ongrid, charging patterns, circuit priority, load balancing...etc.

I having seen the Enphase system up close, it is incredible...Maybe this charging company will compete with $635B Tesla, $22B Enphase, $14B Solaredge, and $5.6B Sunpower creating a compelling home energy management solution, but I would like to see it first.

Maybe I am missing your point though...little confused. I am not saying potentially using your car as your main battery may not come down the pipe, and maybe the companies I just mentioned do it, because some, like Enphase do a killer job with their own battery...

I guess it comes down to preference. I would much prefer a dedicated battery than use my car, because I would like to use the grid as backup (ex-charging car when I want to use grid) to certain extent. I am actually in the process of designing a system for my house now.
Using your car and a sophisticated EVSE in conjunction with your utility is an alternative for those who don't install the sophisticated and big $$ systems you are talking about.
If you are driving an EV with a big pack, connecting to the grid to give a kW or 2 adds up in the big picture.
My house is situated in a way and with a roof design that makes solar impractical. I already have a V1G EVSE. I'm all over taking the next step to help balance the grid and have power for my home for the once every 3-4 year outage.
If you are suggesting that a home system with solar, dedicated batteries and a generator is a better solution, count me shocked.
But in the typical V2G scenario, a small percentage of your EV battery becomes part of just the solution you are proposing (on the whole utility/grid scale). 10,000 EVs either shaving the load for their home usage or loaning a little juice to the grid does make a difference and utilities are actively promoting this usage (often with incentives to do so)
It makes little economic sense for me to purchase a Powerwall (or equivalent) when I have an EV connected to the grid during peak demand times. I, and many other owners, will find this capability eminently useful without having to purchase dedicated off grid backup systems. For some people those make sense, for many they don't.
 

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We are after different things. I'd like to be largely off grid, have a slick interface, solar, some AI for TOU, and a backup solution - no generator, zero interest. I also don't want to lose power every time I go to work if my house does not have power, or if I am out of town...I don't mind spending money for what I want, that's why I work so much :) You have a different use case and that's totally fine. When you get yours setup let us know how it goes, when do you anticipate that being? Having an EV a backup to backup sounds cool - but in my design I am not adding because the tech does not appear to be there...and I might not need it as the solar charges my batteries during the day.

Using your car and a sophisticated EVSE in conjunction with your utility is an alternative for those who don't install the sophisticated and big $$ systems you are talking about.
If you are driving an EV with a big pack, connecting to the grid to give a kW or 2 adds up in the big picture.
My house is situated in a way and with a roof design that makes solar impractical. I already have a V1G EVSE. I'm all over taking the next step to help balance the grid and have power for my home for the once every 3-4 year outage.
If you are suggesting that a home system with solar, dedicated batteries and a generator is a better solution, count me shocked.
But in the typical V2G scenario, a small percentage of your EV battery becomes part of just the solution you are proposing (on the whole utility/grid scale). 10,000 EVs either shaving the load for their home usage or loaning a little juice to the grid does make a difference and utilities are actively promoting this usage (often with incentives to do so)
It makes little economic sense for me to purchase a Powerwall (or equivalent) when I have an EV connected to the grid during peak demand times. I, and many other owners, will find this capability eminently useful without having to purchase dedicated off grid backup systems. For some people those make sense, for many they don't.
 
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fromawayfarm

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I am in the process of adding 2 Tesla Powerwalls to my home. I already have solar (6.8 kW) and will be pretty close to zero reliance on the grid. It will be interesting to see how adding the Rivian will change this.
Ladiver, I am already there and I think adding the Rivian will be revolutionary!
I have a 9.6 kW solar array on the roof, and two Tesla Powerwalls for energy arbitrage. The Powerwalls are also set up to power a critical load circuit in my house in the event of a power outage.
Living in coastal Maine, it is a fact of life that the power grid go down several times a year due to storms (ice on power lines, fallen trees etc.) often for days at a time. Most people deal with it by spending ~$15k on a backup generator. My two power walls (~27 kWh total capacity) normally provide my house with power when the sun is not shining, they are also programed to go into a storm mode and stay topped off if weather is threatening. If the grid cuts out they take over powering select circuits in my house (fridge, water heater, internet, certain outlets, lights in high use rooms etc.) and are good for about 36 hours in cold weather with no sun to recharge. If I could add the 135 kWh of a Rivian battery (and the 64 kWh of my Kona EV battery) that would be the equivalent of adding 15 more Tesla Powerwalls of the size that I currently have to my storage capacity.
 

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