Trump to kill EV tax credit (11/14/24 article) -- [ADMIN WARNING: INFRACTIONS ISSUED FOR VIOLATING NO POLITICS RULE]

[White Shadow]

Finally, a sensible response. Anyone purchasing a luxury EV like Rivian shouldn't need the tax credit to make it feasible.

Luxury EVs aren't nearly as important as the more entry level EVs. Just ask Tesla. Model 3 and Model Y are the two vehicles that allowed Tesa to become profitable. R2 and R3 are what Rivian needs to become profitable.

That said, I know more than one person who wanted a Model 3, but ended up buying a Modey Y because of the tax credit. You know, because of the SUV versus passenger car limits being different, factored in with the price of the vehicles. So yes, the tax credit is a big deal and losing it will most definitely have a negative impact. The big issue for Rivian is the timing of this....as they get ready to produce their lower cost vehicles, having that incentive in place would have been great. Not having it is definitely going to have a negative impact. The real question is just how much of a negative impact will it have.

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[White Shadow]

The only state where gasoline is properly priced is California. The rest of the country benefits by low taxes and subsidized oil.

If all subsidies were lifted, we would have $5+ gas everywhere and EVs wouldn't have any need for tax credits.

Welp, we're soon to be headed in the opposite direction. Projections now are for cheaper oil, thus lower gasoline prices.

 

[ActionableDave]

We are not a manufacturing economy. We haven't been for decades now....we are a service economy. And there's good reason for that. Trying to go backwards now would be a major mistake and wouldn't work anyway. Why? Simple----manufacturing is being taken over more and more by automation. For tasks that require actual people to perform, we can never compete with 3rd world countries and/or developing nations. If you think tariffs are the answer to compete, think again. They don't work and end up costing the consumer. And they'll also put us at a completitive disadvantage with the rest of the world who will continue to engage in free trade.

Reading up on economics should be required of all Americans.

That was the mindset that now has us making little to nothing here; it can't always be about the economics of the individual products. We must as a nation have an industrial policy, one that allows us to manufacture the products we need and many that have intellectual property concerns, such as chips and technology products.

We don't need to compete with the lowest priced labor from the 3rd world; we have to ensure we are competitive, with automation, for technology manufacturing opportunities. It may not be cheaper overall, but it will keep us able to make things in case we need it.

Case in point; the companies who made PPE prior to the pandemic (one of my clients) were having their masks and gowns made in China; when the pandemic hit, they held onto them and wouldn't let our client ship them out of the country. Now their customers want visibility deep into their supply chain. I did the research following the first wave of the pandemic.

Let's be smart about manufacturing, and make strategic things here, and let the t-shirts be made in Vietnam, both literally and figuratively.

 

[George Kaplan]

You don't know that. I think you're wrong. The market doesn't work in a vacuum, and this 7500 isn't going to amount to much at the end of the day. You have no real proof, same as me. Only difference is I actually have a Rivian so I have a better idea what they do and do not do. Just like in your view not having carplay is the kiss of death and that hasn't been the case either.

I get twitchy when people get too invested in products which are still a long way from shipping. I am old enough to remember the $40K Cybertruck that was announced at launch. I seriously doubt Scout will meet its announced price targets by 2027.

As I recall the R2 was announced at a mid-$40K starting price. *IF* Rivian is able to keep to that price point, then R2 will be solidly in the pricing of comparably sized ICE and hybrid SUVs and crossovers.

ANY vehicle’s sales would benefit from a rebate of $3,750 or $7,500, but R2 should be able to compete on features and quality if Rivian can stick the landing.

 

[White Shadow]

That was the mindset that now has us making little to nothing here; it can't always be about the economics of the individual products. We must as a nation have an industrial policy, one that allows us to manufacture the products we need and many that have intellectual property concerns, such as chips and technology products.

We don't need to compete with the lowest priced labor from the 3rd world; we have to ensure we are competitive, with automation, for technology manufacturing opportunities. It may not be cheaper overall, but it will keep us able to make things in case we need it.

Case in point; the companies who made PPE prior to the pandemic (one of my clients) were having their masks and gowns made in China; when the pandemic hit, they held onto them and wouldn't let our client ship them out of the country. Now their customers want visibility deep into their supply chain. I did the research following the first wave of the pandemic.

Let's be smart about manufacturing, and make strategic things here, and let the t-shirts be made in Vietnam, both literally and figuratively.

Yup, the pandemic changed things for sure as supply got quickly outpaced by demand. As things continue to normalize, we'll see a shift back though. In fact, it's already happening. But no matter how hard we try, we cannot be competitive with developing nations when it comes to basics like the cost of labor. And yes, we'd have to be competitive as long as trade between nations continues. No first world country can operation in a vacuum, and if they tried, they wouldn't survive.

 

[ActionableDave]

Yup, the pandemic changed things for sure as supply got quickly outpaced by demand. As things continue to normalize, we'll see a shift back though. In fact, it's already happening. But no matter how hard we try, we cannot be competitive with developing nations when it comes to basics like the cost of labor. And yes, we'd have to be competitive as long as trade between nations continues. No first world country can operation in a vacuum, and if they tried, they wouldn't survive.

The upshot here is that we HAVE to make things here we haven't made in the USA in a while. It will keep us competitive as a nation and provide important jobs for all the people who don't need to go to college. Not everyone benefits from a college education; many will do fine in trades and supporting manufacturing.

To be sure, I am not preaching a nativist agenda, we don't need that either IMO. There is a happy medium between being a colony that exports raw materials and imports finished goods, and a country that makes things only for their own people.

 

[Riv_Ian]

I recall early during the COVID pandemic hearing a manufacturer of machines that produce N95 masks saying they were $3M a piece to build, which was paid for quickly at pandemic pricing but not when there was an excess supply of off-shore manufactured PPE. At the time, the government appeared to be in a bidding war for PPE and was paying a huge premium. I wondered at the time why a relatively small % of those tax dollars weren't being spent by the government to purchase machines to produce N95 masks as a strategic reserve of production capacity. In non-surge pricing times, they could be leased back to domestic manufacturers at an attractive rate with an agreement to produce at standard cost whenever a crisis comes along.

 

[cjones1130]

Not great news although unsurprising. Stock off 10% now.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...eam-aims-kill-biden-ev-tax-credit-2024-11-14/

Good, this was a ridiculous credit (though obv I took advantage of it)

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Luxury EVs aren't nearly as important as the more entry level EVs. Just ask Tesla. Model 3 and Model Y are the two vehicles that allowed Tesa to become profitable. R2 and R3 are what Rivian needs to become profitable.

That said, I know more than one person who wanted a Model 3, but ended up buying a Modey Y because of the tax credit. You know, because of the SUV versus passenger car limits being different, factored in with the price of the vehicles. So yes, the tax credit is a big deal and losing it will most definitely have a negative impact. The big issue for Rivian is the timing of this....as they get ready to produce their lower cost vehicles, having that incentive in place would have been great. Not having it is definitely going to have a negative impact. The real question is just how much of a negative impact will it have.

I bought X vehicle because it had the tax credit and Y vehicle did not is irrelevant. NO VEHICLE will have the tax credit. The tax credit WILL NOT BE a factor. How can you say it will have negative impact when the credit will no longer be a factor in anyone's purchasing decisions? You have no basis for your claim, because your claim is based on reasoning that won't be relevant if the credit disappears.

 

[Jonger1150]

I get twitchy when people get too invested in products which are still a long way from shipping. I am old enough to remember the $40K Cybertruck that was announced at launch. I seriously doubt Scout will meet its announced price targets by 2027.

As I recall the R2 was announced at a mid-$40K starting price. *IF* Rivian is able to keep to that price point, then R2 will be solidly in the pricing of comparably sized ICE and hybrid SUVs and crossovers.

ANY vehicle’s sales would benefit from a rebate of $3,750 or $7,500, but R2 should be able to compete on features and quality if Rivian can stick the landing.

We just need battery pricing to drop and battery makers INSIDE the US. I read the other day that lithium prices have flattened out, instead of falling.

The US government should be pumped SHIT TONS of money into a domestic battery industry, but that won't happen for 4 years. In the meanwhile, Samsung is going to produce the R2 batteries inside the US. That's better than how the R1 is handled.

 

[Jonger1150]

Good, this was a ridiculous credit (though obv I took advantage of it)

The credit will speed up adoption, but long term it probably won't matter.

EVs will be cheaper, higher performance and cleaner. With a few more battery updates, the towing and quicker refueling advantage will be gone as well.

 

[riv-e-in]

So what should we do then? Should we keep pumping hydrocarbons into the air if green energy isn't the answer?

Hope this helps...

Propaganda is working - whether consciously or subconsciously - based on the response.
The first question is inquisitive and open-ended.
The second question is presumptive and closed-ended. (only "fossil" energy is available if "green" energy isn't?)
As previously mentioned, there is a viable alternative to "green" energy and "fossil" energy that will sustain and advance this country for decades, if implemented.
Will it be difficult? Hell yes.
Will it be worthy? Hell yes.

As @Zoidz articulated, the "news" and "green" energy say "nuclear bad!" and the populace just nod their head in agreement because they're scared and uninformed. "Green" energy is driven by greedism just like "fossil" energy. Perform the energy calcs and material calcs to disprove nuclear (in multiple forms) as the worthy option.

What if an energy "credit" is abandoned, and an existing energy "credit" remains? Probably nothing that the populace will notice.
The overwhelming issue is the accumulating debt. What successful business accumulates debt at an accelerating rate while dispensing "free" money??

Until the various "industrial complexes" are severely gutted or eliminated, very little will change and the "news" will dispense treats to the populace to keep them satiated or pissed (just like sports-racing-etc. "distract" the masses all year long).

* gut the military industrial complex,
* gut the prison industrial complex - restoring & repairing communities is a start,
* eliminate the lobbyist industrial complex - this is self-explanatory,
* eliminate the agriculture industrial complex - make agriculture healthy with regenerative farming: curb flooding, erosion, toxic plumes, sequester more carbon, and make citizens healthier.
* eliminate the subsidy industrial complex (not just fossil fuel)- goes hand-in-hand with the lobbyist industrial complex,
* gut the media-tech industrial complex,
* gut the pharma industrial complex (and reinstate vaccine liability) - the US populace is half of global pharma, and a carnivore or plant-based food system will greatly reduce or eliminate the need for pharma and fix the majority of health care issues and fraud.
* gut the health care industrial complex,
* improve citizens health naturally - carnivore, whole-foods plant-based nutrition - combined with regenerative farming will dramatically change the health outcomes of millions of citizens,
* establish crypto as a reserve,
* if necessary, put incentives at the back-end (e.g. a contractor gets a bonus if a project is completed months ahead of schedule),
* establish a flat tax with no "credits" or "write-offs" or "loopholes" so everyone above a specified amount pays the same %,
* establish term limits,

Take the money saved from these programs to repay debt while incentivizing nuclear energy...

The path less traveled is worth the effort...and makes all the difference.

 

[riv-e-in]

We just need battery pricing to drop and battery makers INSIDE the US. I read the other day that lithium prices have flattened out, instead of falling.

The US government should be pumped SHIT TONS of money into a domestic battery industry, but that won't happen for 4 years. In the meanwhile, Samsung is going to produce the R2 batteries inside the US. That's better than how the R1 is handled.

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

 

[SASSquatch]

I have to disagree with Rivian's track record regarding execution. The vehicle I received is a fantastic piece of technology for any manufacturer, let alone for a first production product from a start-up. I'm genuinely impressed with how good their product is, especially where Rivian is in its manufacturing journey.

I'm glad you've had a really good experience. I think, based on the threads and responses in this forum it is safe to say there are a lot of folks that haven't shared that experience especially when Rivian ramped production. It isn't uncommon for first production vehicles to have higher build quality than when the OEM attempts to ramp production.

That said, I'm more speaking with Rivian executing on financial, production, delivery, profit, and other targets (see PTC, camp kitchen, etc). They don't have a good track record thus far of delivering on their promises.

I think that comes hand in hand with a new OEM who is facing significant challenges as a startup against a backdrop of significant competition.

That doesn't mean they're doomed, but it does mean we have to be realistic that their road ahead is very challenging and it will require improvements in terms of the decisions, strategies, priorities, and partnerships they pursue to both survive and eventually thrive.

 

[JRock]

No free trade? Tell me more. I'd love to hear this.

BTW, I have a Master's in Economics.

And tarrifs hurt the consumer, that's all they do. This is common knowledge to most people, even if you don't understand it.

Tariff wars always end well. Right? I’m looking at you, Smoot-Hawley.

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