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Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

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COdogman

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You seem to be moving the target.

I thought your complaint was that NACS "by design, is limited to 500v" and that anyone who adopts the standard would "be forced to go back to 400 or 500v"?

Or is it just that Tesla has not built enough 1000 volt chargers for your liking?

Those are very different arguments.

And the second one doesn't hold much water either as an argument against using a NACS port since today's vehicles with NACS ports can charge at both Tesla stations and CCS stations and GM specifically said that their vehicles would continue to be able to use CCS chargers after the switch. If you want to continue to use Electrify America or other existing CCS charging stations, nothing about manufacturers. Switching to NACS ports will prevent you from doing so.

Also there are the same number of 1000 volt NACS chargers as there are 1000 volt CCS chargers along the routes i frequent for long distance road trips. There are a bunch of 500 volt NACS chargers on the route though.
I’m not moving anything nor did I say what you claim I did.

The Tesla stations do not currently charge at 800-1000v do they? So the point is their plug should not be the “North American standard” until they have a significant number chargers that can do that. I’m not saying they can’t or won’t do that - rather they have none that do it right now.

If your excuse is that CCS can serve those owners with EV6s/ Ioniq 5s/ etc. (800v vehicles), then it sounds like Tesla’s plug isn’t ready yet to be the “standard” and the NEVI bill should remain as it is currently written.
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Top 5 Reasons Switching to a NACS Port is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer:

1.) It will absolutely limit innovation
: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

2.) It will cost more: Elon Musk wants to make money off of you, and the OEMS could care less: Please remember this fact. Non-Tesla vehicles are charged significantly more for using a Supercharger than native Tesla owners. That will never change.

3.) It will create a tiered class system: Tesla will always, and I mean always, prioritize its own customers when it comes to user support and user experience. This is the only way they will incentivize future owners to buy Tesla in the future. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, Tesla will turn around and blame the OEM for not implementing a software change, or hardware update, etc. Welcome to the world of Apple (Tesla) vs. Android (CCS).

4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience: All existing Tesla Superchargers are designed with cabling, stall positions, and architecture for Tesla vehicles. Non-Tesla vehicles do not have the ports in the correct position which means you can either not charge at all, or you have to block another charger by positioning your non-Tesla vehicle at an awkward angle. If your vehicle supports 800v architecture like the Kia EV6, you will have significantly decreased charging speed. This cannot be easily addressed by an adapter.

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle: You are allowing Elon Musk, purveyor of chaos and who single handedly destroyed Twitter to control your charging experience. Elon Musk will always prioritize his interests and the interests of Tesla. Irrespective of any agreements, all other OEMs are competitors. Imagine the information he can obtain from your vehicle, driver history, specifications, charging curves, etc. by controlling the charging experience. He will absolutely use that information to the advantage of Tesla and to the detriment of every other OEM.
I was understanding until #5…
 

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Top 5 Reasons Switching to a NACS Port is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer:

1.) It will absolutely limit innovation
: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

2.) It will cost more: Elon Musk wants to make money off of you, and the OEMS could care less: Please remember this fact. Non-Tesla vehicles are charged significantly more for using a Supercharger than native Tesla owners. That will never change.

3.) It will create a tiered class system: Tesla will always, and I mean always, prioritize its own customers when it comes to user support and user experience. This is the only way they will incentivize future owners to buy Tesla in the future. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, Tesla will turn around and blame the OEM for not implementing a software change, or hardware update, etc. Welcome to the world of Apple (Tesla) vs. Android (CCS).

4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience: All existing Tesla Superchargers are designed with cabling, stall positions, and architecture for Tesla vehicles. Non-Tesla vehicles do not have the ports in the correct position which means you can either not charge at all, or you have to block another charger by positioning your non-Tesla vehicle at an awkward angle. If your vehicle supports 800v architecture like the Kia EV6, you will have significantly decreased charging speed. This cannot be easily addressed by an adapter.

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle: You are allowing Elon Musk, purveyor of chaos and who single handedly destroyed Twitter to control your charging experience. Elon Musk will always prioritize his interests and the interests of Tesla. Irrespective of any agreements, all other OEMs are competitors. Imagine the information he can obtain from your vehicle, driver history, specifications, charging curves, etc. by controlling the charging experience. He will absolutely use that information to the advantage of Tesla and to the detriment of every other OEM.
Points 2-5 assume you are charging at a Tesla SC vs using a NACS in general. With NACS being open (and the standard going forward) non-Tesla charge companies (e.g. EVgo, Chargepoint, etc.) will eventually support NACS. If you think the SC network and/or Tesla is terrible you will have options and can use one of the other (smaller) networks and Tesla will not get a single penny from you. I for one will be using the massive SC network when it opens up to Rivian to greatly improve my road trip experience. Those that are willing to have a lot less charge options and a less easy road trip experience in favor of making a personal moral stand can certainly still do that.
 

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Having used both charging stations/standards...
Tesla Charging WORKS ALL THE TIME! You never have to check plugshare to see which station is actually working or if you are actually going to get the full power for your state of charge. CCS stations are a joke... period end of discussion.
Having said that I have yet to use the RAN chargers, but they look promising.
Now I honestly don't care what plug I use, I do prefer the size of the Tesla connector, but I'd rather have Tesla in charge of the charging infrastructure because they actually care about their stations and address issues quickly, and that is just be looking at the data that is available.
 

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Top 5 Reasons Switching to a NACS Port is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer:

1.) It will absolutely limit innovation
:

2.) It will cost more:

3.) It will create a tiered class system:


4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience:

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle:
Ha ha, LMFAO...

1) Other than Porsche, who else has 800+V architecture? Let's revisit in 5~7 yrs when so called high voltage architecture become common place. Tesla is already on V4 supercharger, what are other CCS1 systems on??? Supercharger has the highest satisfaction survey by users than any other chargers.

2) More than what? For F and GM, and therefore all others in the future, the charging will be done by the the vehicle maker to the owner. It's mfg to Tesla for the aggregate cost of GM or F vehicles charging with Supercharger. Think of it sort of like mobile virtual operators that buy excess bandwidth from AT&T, Verizon or T-Mo and resells it to consumers.

3) Elon has already stated that Tesla owners WILL NOT have any priority over F and GM EVs.

4) What could be more simple than just drive up and plug in. When done unplug and leave??? As for the plug location, I fully expect F and GM to move them to be compatible with the Supercharger stalls, since they are going to be built with NACS plug.

5)Your opinion - fine. Having owned Tesla for many years, no madman has invaded my vehicle...
 

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Points 2-5 assume you are charging at a Tesla SC vs using a NACS in general. With NACS being open (and the standard going forward) non-Tesla charge companies (e.g. EVgo, Chargepoint, etc.) will eventually support NACS. If you think the SC network and/or Tesla is terrible you will have options and can use one of the other (smaller) networks and Tesla will not get a single penny from you. I for one will be using the massive SC network when it opens up to Rivian to greatly improve my road trip experience. Those that are willing to have a lot less charge options and a less easy road trip experience in favor of making a personal moral stand can certainly still do that.
The plug has to be standard and not controlled by one company. If Elon can give up control then it can be a standard. Until then it can’t be. USB is a standard, lightning is not even if Apple let others use it.
 

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Top 5 reasons why I know @SASSquatch has not bothered to read the specs of the standard they are criticizing.

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf?xseo=&response-content-disposition=inline;filename="North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf"

Screenshot 2023-06-09 5.32.44 PM.png




And then page 26 sets out that the max power is at least 1000v x 900A = 900KW. Can CCS match that?

Screenshot 2023-06-09 5.35.55 PM.png
You missed the part where it's only rated for 200A continuous. It's not on this document intentionally.
 

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Ha ha, LMFAO...

1) Other than Porsche, who else has 800+V architecture? Let's revisit in 5~7 yrs when so called high voltage architecture become common place. Tesla is already on V4 supercharger, what are other CCS1 systems on??? Supercharger has the highest satisfaction survey by users than any other chargers.

2) More than what? For F and GM, and therefore all others in the future, the charging will be done by the the vehicle maker to the owner. It's mfg to Tesla for the aggregate cost of GM or F vehicles charging with Supercharger. Think of it sort of like mobile virtual operators that buy excess bandwidth from AT&T, Verizon or T-Mo and resells it to consumers.

3) Elon has already stated that Tesla owners WILL NOT have any priority over F and GM EVs.

4) What could be more simple than just drive up and plug in. When done unplug and leave??? As for the plug location, I fully expect F and GM to move them to be compatible with the Supercharger stalls, since they are going to be built with NACS plug.

5)Your opinion - fine. Having owned Tesla for many years, no madman has invaded my vehicle...
1) The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 are both capable of 800v charging. Tesla Stans claim the cybertruck will be capable. And there is only 1 v4 supercharger currently operating in the entire world.
 
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Ha ha, LMFAO...

1) Other than Porsche, who else has 800+V architecture? Let's revisit in 5~7 yrs when so called high voltage architecture become common place. Tesla is already on V4 supercharger, what are other CCS1 systems on??? Supercharger has the highest satisfaction survey by users than any other chargers.

2) More than what? For F and GM, and therefore all others in the future, the charging will be done by the the vehicle maker to the owner. It's mfg to Tesla for the aggregate cost of GM or F vehicles charging with Supercharger. Think of it sort of like mobile virtual operators that buy excess bandwidth from AT&T, Verizon or T-Mo and resells it to consumers.

3) Elon has already stated that Tesla owners WILL NOT have any priority over F and GM EVs.

4) What could be more simple than just drive up and plug in. When done unplug and leave??? As for the plug location, I fully expect F and GM to move them to be compatible with the Supercharger stalls, since they are going to be built with NACS plug.

5)Your opinion - fine. Having owned Tesla for many years, no madman has invaded my vehicle...
1. Um......Porsche Taycan, Hyundai Ioniq 5, Genesis G80 EV, Kia EV6 and Audi e-Tron GT. Other car manufacturers that have committed to an 800V architectures include Volvo, Polestar, Stellantis, General Motors, BYD and Lotus.

2. Tesla charges more for charging for non-Tesla customers. This is obvious for those who have used "magic dock" and this will be the standard moving forward for all other brands. Otherwise, Tesla isn't making money.

3. If I had a nickel for everytime Elon said XYZ and was full of complete shit, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams. If you believe Elon, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

4. Nobody will drive up and plug in. Everyone non-tesla will have to go through their OEM app which will be handling the processing.

5. You are clearly an Elon apologist. Nuff said.
 
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Points 2-5 assume you are charging at a Tesla SC vs using a NACS in general. With NACS being open (and the standard going forward) non-Tesla charge companies (e.g. EVgo, Chargepoint, etc.) will eventually support NACS. If you think the SC network and/or Tesla is terrible you will have options and can use one of the other (smaller) networks and Tesla will not get a single penny from you. I for one will be using the massive SC network when it opens up to Rivian to greatly improve my road trip experience. Those that are willing to have a lot less charge options and a less easy road trip experience in favor of making a personal moral stand can certainly still do that.
Why do you assume it will open up to Rivian? Rivian has announced no plans for adopting the NACS standard.

Currently, you would only be able to use the handful of Magic Dock chargers which barely have a cable long enough when driving in head first. Also, you're paying a significant price premium.
 

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The only reason NACS is being considered as an alternative plug is for access to Superchargers.

(It’s not because people want NACS on EA devices.)

So let’s stop with this nonsense that people will accept NACS without Supercharger access

Let’s be real
 
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I was understanding until #5…
I don't trust Elon Musk, but if you do, then you are welcome to do so. He has a long history of creating chaos.

He's probably also going to be sued into the stratosphere for pumping and dumping crypto - but that's another topic.
 
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The government is butting in on Tesla charging adoption. More to follow.

https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/white-house-throws-cold-water-tesla-nacs-victory/
Here is the relevant sections for those that don't want to click:

White House spokesperson Robyn Patterson said in statement regarding the new development with NACS in the last few weeks (via Reuters):

Earlier this year, we developed minimum standards to ensure publicly funded EV charging is accessible, reliable, and affordable for all drivers, and we required interoperability to promote competition. Those standards give flexibility for adding both CCS and NACS, as long as drivers can count on a minimum of CCS.
It sounds like it is not willing to let CCS die just yet. It will require that charging stations have a “minimum of CCS” in order to qualify for federal funding.

The federal government has made $7.5 billion available to advance EV charging infrastructure in the US.
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