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Thoughts on Exterior Lights (Turn Signals/Brake/Hazard Lights)

BrayBay

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Haven't seen this discussed yet, but does the design of the exterior lights slightly disappoint anyone else? From the R1T manual (assumes the same for R1S):
  • Turn signals: Amber front turn signals and red rear turn signals alert other drivers that the driver plans on making a turn or changing lanes.
  • Brake lights: Red lights at the rear of the vehicle and red light strips above the rear window alert other drivers that the vehicle is slowing or stopping.
  • Hazard lights: Amber front and red rear turn signals flash at the same time to alert other drivers of a hazard or emergency
The concern is ambiguity with only using red lights in the rear especially with the rear lights being relatively small. I feel like the small light strip under the rear red light bar could have been configured to use an amber light.

Not related to the rear, but I also feel like the front turn signals should use the edge of the light bar instead of the stadium lights.

Technology Connections on YouTube covers this topic as well.

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Dark-Fx

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FMVSS requires rear turn signals and brake lights to be "as far apart as practicable". I believe there is also language prohibiting them on movable body parts but I don't know the exact wording of it. Rivian doesn't have the ability to put it on the tailgate and meet the federal standards.
 

timf

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The Model X brake lights and turn signals are a similar size and location to Rivian's, yet they use dual-color LEDs with red for braking and amber for turning/hazard. It's disappointing Rivian did not take the same approach.
 

Speedrye

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I'm quite disappointed in the red rear signals instead of amber for my safety. I'm also hoping there's an option to turn off the front DRL during the day.

I'll reserve judgement on the conspicuity of the rear brake lights until I can see one in person. Being small and on the corners, I'm reminded of how horrible recent Ford Explorers have been. They might meet requirements, but you can't see the brake lights or turn signals in the daylight when following one.
 

sacramentoelectric

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I'm quite disappointed in the red rear signals instead of amber for my safety. I'm also hoping there's an option to turn off the front DRL during the day.

I'll reserve judgement on the conspicuity of the rear brake lights until I can see one in person. Being small and on the corners, I'm reminded of how horrible recent Ford Explorers have been. They might meet requirements, but you can't see the brake lights or turn signals in the daylight when following one.
Under what circumstances would you want to turn DRLs off?
 

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bd5400

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If Rivian wants to sell the R1T or R1S in Europe they will need to implement amber turn signals in the rear. Ideally those units would be swappable with the U.S. unit, but there could also be an issue with obtaining the parts if Rivian controls the supply and refuses to sell the European part to those in the U.S.
 

Speedrye

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Under what circumstances would you want to turn DRLs off?
All. A number of studies have shown them to increase the risks of dying in an accident in cars. At last check, having DRL gives you a 10% higher chance of getting killed in a car accident. If it's a motorcycle-on-car accident, the risk of fatality goes up somewhere between 9%-17%. Generally, cars with DRL aren't as noticeable. A big caveat is that white vehicles with DRL are safer, though I suspect it's being white, not the DRL that are making the vehicle safer.

For whatever reason, having DRL decreases your visibility to other drivers. I suspect you blend in more being a combination of light/dark colors/shapes in a background of light /dark shapes instead of being an only-dark or only-light mass moving through that same mottled background.

I haven't seen any studies comparing amber DRL safety to white DRL safety, but I'll bet amber DRLs are a lot safer as they stand out more in a variety of backgrounds.
 

kurtlikevonnegut

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bd5400

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All. A number of studies have shown them to increase the risks of dying in an accident in cars. At last check, having DRL gives you a 10% higher chance of getting killed in a car accident. If it's a motorcycle-on-car accident, the risk of fatality goes up somewhere between 9%-17%. Generally, cars with DRL aren't as noticeable. A big caveat is that white vehicles with DRL are safer, though I suspect it's being white, not the DRL that are making the vehicle safer.

For whatever reason, having DRL decreases your visibility to other drivers. I suspect you blend in more being a combination of light/dark colors/shapes in a background of light /dark shapes instead of being an only-dark or only-light mass moving through that same mottled background.

I haven't seen any studies comparing amber DRL safety to white DRL safety, but I'll bet amber DRLs are a lot safer as they stand out more in a variety of backgrounds.
Do you know where these studies are? I've never read anything suggesting DRLs are less safe during the day. Almost all criticism I've read regarding DRLs has to do with their night time use and people not realizing their headlights (and thus tail lights) are not on.

The NHTSA says that DRLs have no statistically significant effect on crashes: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811029#:~:text=The analysis found that DRLs,were also not statistically significant

However, that's from 2008 so things could have changed since then as LED DRLs become increasingly common.
 
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sacramentoelectric

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All. A number of studies have shown them to increase the risks of dying in an accident in cars. At last check, having DRL gives you a 10% higher chance of getting killed in a car accident. If it's a motorcycle-on-car accident, the risk of fatality goes up somewhere between 9%-17%. Generally, cars with DRL aren't as noticeable. A big caveat is that white vehicles with DRL are safer, though I suspect it's being white, not the DRL that are making the vehicle safer.

For whatever reason, having DRL decreases your visibility to other drivers. I suspect you blend in more being a combination of light/dark colors/shapes in a background of light /dark shapes instead of being an only-dark or only-light mass moving through that same mottled background.

I haven't seen any studies comparing amber DRL safety to white DRL safety, but I'll bet amber DRLs are a lot safer as they stand out more in a variety of backgrounds.
Not trying to pick a fight but do you have any references to those studies? I'm not familiar with the research but a quick google doesn't turn up anything like what you're saying. Rather, it shows DRLs to have a small to undetectable increase in safety. Where are you getting your figures?

"Effectiveness at Reducing Crash Rates In the considerable body of research on this topic, most studies have found that the presence of DRLs reduces daytime multiple-vehicle crashes, especially head-on and front-corner collisions where vehicle conspicuity is a concern. The magnitude of the reduction varies depending on the study and the type of crash, but many studies have found a reduction of 5 to 10 percent. The most recent large-scale study on this topic conducted in the United States is a 2008 NHTSA study that found that DRLs had no statistically significant effects on the types of crashes studied, except for a 5.7 percent reduction in the involvement of light trucks/vans in two-vehicle crashes. A 2004 NHTSA study that used different analysis methodology found that DRLs reduced opposite-direction fatal crashes by 5 percent and opposite-direction/angle non-fatal crashes by 5 percent. That study also found a 12 percent reduction in crashes involving pedestrians and bicyclists, and a 23 percent reduction in opposite-direction crashes involving motorcyclists."
Effects of 24-Hour Headlight Use on Traffic Safety - LRRB
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811029
The safety effects of Daytime Running Lights | www.swov.nl
 

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Speedrye

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Not trying to pick a fight but do you have any references to those studies? I'm not familiar with the research but a quick google doesn't turn up anything like what you're saying. Rather, it shows DRLs to have a small to undetectable increase in safety. Where are you getting your figures?

"Effectiveness at Reducing Crash Rates In the considerable body of research on this topic, most studies have found that the presence of DRLs reduces daytime multiple-vehicle crashes, especially head-on and front-corner collisions where vehicle conspicuity is a concern. The magnitude of the reduction varies depending on the study and the type of crash, but many studies have found a reduction of 5 to 10 percent. The most recent large-scale study on this topic conducted in the United States is a 2008 NHTSA study that found that DRLs had no statistically significant effects on the types of crashes studied, except for a 5.7 percent reduction in the involvement of light trucks/vans in two-vehicle crashes. A 2004 NHTSA study that used different analysis methodology found that DRLs reduced opposite-direction fatal crashes by 5 percent and opposite-direction/angle non-fatal crashes by 5 percent. That study also found a 12 percent reduction in crashes involving pedestrians and bicyclists, and a 23 percent reduction in opposite-direction crashes involving motorcyclists."
Effects of 24-Hour Headlight Use on Traffic Safety - LRRB
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811029
The safety effects of Daytime Running Lights | www.swov.nl

Read through that NHTSA study in more detail. I disagree with their assessment of "no statisticallly significant effects" as they're taking various vehicle types and averaging them out. If you're 10% more likely to die in a car with DRL, but 10% less likely to die in a work truck with DRL, I don't think those results should be averaged together. If I can do something as simple as turning off my lights to decrease my risk of dying in an accident by 10%, I certainly will. On the flip side, when I've had work trucks, I keep my DRL on all the time.
 
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Zool

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Under what circumstances would you want to turn DRLs off?
All. A number of studies have shown them to increase the risks of dying in an accident in cars.

I too fantasize about evading roving gangs in darkness on the backroads of rural America, but this is absolutely ridiculous.

DRLs have been mandatory in Canada for thirty years. Here is an excerpt from a study published 4/5 years after their implementation. From a Globe and Mail article.

"A 1994 Transport Canada report, Effectiveness of Daytime Running Lights in Canada based on Collision Data Before and After the Implementation of DRL, indicated an overall effectiveness in preventing frontal and lateral collisions between two light-duty vehicles of 8.3 per cent in daylight, and 16.6 per cent in twilight, for a combined total of 9.2 per cent.

A 1997 study evaluating the impact of daytime running lights on traffic safety in Canada, published in the Journal of Safety Research, had different results. "What we found was that there was a real – that is, not due to chance – 5 per cent decrease in crashes in two provinces, but DRLs appeared to make no difference in the rest," says Paul C. Whitehead, one of the study's authors, and professor of sociology at the University of Western Ontario."


I agree with BD5400, the biggest problem around here is people driving at night thinking their lights are on when they aren't. It is also important to consider the varied types of accidents tallied in crash data reports. DRL's aren't going to help if you run a red light, get rear ended or have a freshly rotated tire fall off.

My current EV has the DRL's on from the moment you press start. All I ask from Rivian is that they come on only when you put the truck in Drive so you can sit warmly on a ferry without annoying other people.
 

sacramentoelectric

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Read through that study in more detail. I disagree with their assessment of "no statisticallly significant effects" as they're taking various vehicle types and averaging them out. If you're 10% more likely to die in a car with DRL, but 10% less likely to die in a work truck with DRL, I don't think those results should be averaged together. If I can do something as simple as turning off my lights to decrease my risk of dying in an accident by 10%, I certainly will. On the flip side, when I've had work trucks, I keep my DRL on all the time.
I went back to look more closely just in case. That's not what the study says. Regarding the change in fatal crashes you are referencing, the researchers note, "these estimated effects were not statistically significant." (4-12.) You don't decrease your chances of a fatal accident by turning off your DRLs. At least not according to the NHTSA. It looks like every government and safety body in the world that has looked into this concluded that DRLs improve safety. Furthermore, a meta-analysis of 24 independent DRL-evaluations concludes that DRLs improve safety as well. I mean, it's possible they're all wrong but I'm pretty satisfied with 24 studies finding the same thing.
 

Speedrye

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I too fantasize about evading roving gangs in darkness on the backroads of rural America, but this is absolutely ridiculous.

DRLs have been mandatory in Canada for thirty years. Here is an excerpt from a study published 4/5 years after their implementation. From a Globe and Mail article.

"A 1994 Transport Canada report, Effectiveness of Daytime Running Lights in Canada based on Collision Data Before and After the Implementation of DRL, indicated an overall effectiveness in preventing frontal and lateral collisions between two light-duty vehicles of 8.3 per cent in daylight, and 16.6 per cent in twilight, for a combined total of 9.2 per cent.

A 1997 study evaluating the impact of daytime running lights on traffic safety in Canada, published in the Journal of Safety Research, had different results. "What we found was that there was a real – that is, not due to chance – 5 per cent decrease in crashes in two provinces, but DRLs appeared to make no difference in the rest," says Paul C. Whitehead, one of the study's authors, and professor of sociology at the University of Western Ontario."


I agree with BD5400, the biggest problem around here is people driving at night thinking their lights are on when they aren't. It is also important to consider the varied types of accidents tallied in crash data reports. DRL's aren't going to help if you run a red light, get rear ended or have a freshly rotated tire fall off.

My current EV has the DRL's on from the moment you press start. All I ask from Rivian is that they come on only when you put the truck in Drive so you can sit warmly on a ferry without annoying other people.
I notice most of the studies showing higher effectiveness are from more northern countries where you deal with a lot more darkness in general. Even when I travel to Maine, there's a big difference in the sun angles than I see here in the southern US, and the days are shorter. I haven't seen too many studies excluding dawn/dusk accidents like the NHTSA study did, thus I put more weight in their daytime accident results. I see plenty of accidents in the morning and evening caused by people without lights on at all, and I can certainly see how having DRL in those situations would be beneficial.
 

Zool

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I notice most of the studies showing higher effectiveness are from more northern countries where you deal with a lot more darkness in general.

That's a good point. In the winter, dusk starts at 3pm here. Enough to make you want to die in a car accident...
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