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Tesla Document Leak - Schmidt alleges that Musk “accepts driver death as a consequence of forwarding technology.”
COdogman
Well-Known Member
Those docs dropped a few weeks ago. I’m surprised a bigger deal wasn’t made about this particular point. Maybe because most of us already assumed this was the case?
Dark-Fx
Well-Known Member
Common theme for recalls too. Is it cheaper to litigate the deaths or do the repairs?
sub
Well-Known Member
While I truly believe that Tesla's "full self driving" claims are fraudulent false-advertising, this particular critique of Tesla/Elon seems baseless. I really don't see why it should be shocking that a few people died using Autopilot.
If we are not outraged by the 40K deaths per year in the USA that are caused by car crashes with human drivers, I don't see why we should be outraged by 33 of deaths of drivers using Autopilot. Does anyone seriously think we should outlaw human driven cars until auto-manufacturers can guarantee no one will ever die using one? If not, why should we hold Tesla to that standard?
This seems exactly like the EV fire stories. Gas cars burn down all the time, but if 1 Tesla catches fire it is national news for some reason. Tons of people die every day driving cars, a few people dieing while driving a Tesla should not be (inter)national news or be keeping Elon up at night.
If we are not outraged by the 40K deaths per year in the USA that are caused by car crashes with human drivers, I don't see why we should be outraged by 33 of deaths of drivers using Autopilot. Does anyone seriously think we should outlaw human driven cars until auto-manufacturers can guarantee no one will ever die using one? If not, why should we hold Tesla to that standard?
This seems exactly like the EV fire stories. Gas cars burn down all the time, but if 1 Tesla catches fire it is national news for some reason. Tons of people die every day driving cars, a few people dieing while driving a Tesla should not be (inter)national news or be keeping Elon up at night.
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Dark-Fx
Well-Known Member
White Shadow
Well-Known Member
Reminds me of back in the day when Ford bean counters (and lawyers?) decided it would be more financially prudent to pay out the lawsuits from occupant deaths occurring due to fires after a rear-end collision of their Pinto small car due to poor gas tank placement/protection. I guess it was more expensive to recall those vehicles or re-engineer a fix, so they chose to do nothing and just deal with the loss of human life instead.
COdogman
Well-Known Member
That is mixing apples with oranges. Crashes (and resulting deaths) are caused by all kinds of reasons, like driver error, weather, drunk driving, distraction, etc… Autopilot is marketed in a way that gives those who use it a false sense of security and safety. It’s more of a live experiment than it is a feature. Deaths caused by autopilot are 100% avoidable. A much lower percentage of other road deaths are truly avoidable.
dleewla
Well-Known Member
nothingburger.
if Elon actually said that it doesnt surprise me one bit. if you follow him on twitter, you know the kind of person he is.
and if youre going to call out stats on a certain brand, you need to compare that against the industry for it to have some context. data can be manipulated to paint any picture you want. poor (maybe biased) journalism imo.
if Elon actually said that it doesnt surprise me one bit. if you follow him on twitter, you know the kind of person he is.
and if youre going to call out stats on a certain brand, you need to compare that against the industry for it to have some context. data can be manipulated to paint any picture you want. poor (maybe biased) journalism imo.
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Donald Stanfield
Well-Known Member
There's a reason everyone else's "self drive" is much more limited in use. Personally I don't trust the auto pilot and I think the lane keep is useful but that's really as far as I need technology wise. Hands free lane keep would be ideal but I will change my lanes myself and I will steer when that's required to make turns.
I am not sure if the people using Elon's system are aware of how potentially dangerous the tech is or if they are just so poor of drivers that they don't really notice much of a difference but I anticipate issues and problems much further ahead than the self drive crap does. My Audi is probably the best for adaptive cruise where it responds to changes in speed from other vehicles in about the same amount of time that I will. The Rivian does most of the time but there is room for improvement.
In my view when the self driving systems cannot even recognize that the car in front of me has or is slowing down anywhere near the same level as I can. That's much less complicated of a thing to figure out than navigating lane changes and turns. Since it's not up to par on that I feel that I don't want to give these systems any more rope to hang me with. One thing I did like on the Rivian is when using the adaptive cruise and driver + when going around turns through the mountains it will slow down from your set speed to negotiate the turn fairly reliably in the way a person would. Again it's still not 100% but it's getting better.
Let's get that down before we add more to it. Elon is right, for the tech to advance someone has to risk themselves it's just not going to be me or my family. I don't care if we ever reach the self driving ability or if it takes another 50 years to do so. I think Elon is just thinking that if they can get the tech perfected eventually it will save many more lives than it would take in its infancy while it's getting ironed out. He's not wrong, but it just seems like a really cold way of looking at it and I personally don't agree that we should be putting people in danger to advance this tech.
The other reason why I disagree with the approach of sacrificing people to this is I'm not convinced that cars are the future of transportation for lots of people. Battery tech is advancing and once it gets energy dense enough things like the Jetson 1 and other passenger drone type things will become viable transportation instead of just toys. Personally I'm on the list to buy a blackfly if and when they ever become realistic. We can already get these things to pilot themselves, the tech exists for that today that's better than human pilot level safe.
It's actually easier to do it in an aircraft than in a car because the sky is so much bigger and you aren't going to hit stuff. With radar and transponders you just program it to stay away from other things and weather and it's pretty easy. So why are we throwing people into the meat grinder with self driving cars when that might not even wind up being the end goal?
I am not sure if the people using Elon's system are aware of how potentially dangerous the tech is or if they are just so poor of drivers that they don't really notice much of a difference but I anticipate issues and problems much further ahead than the self drive crap does. My Audi is probably the best for adaptive cruise where it responds to changes in speed from other vehicles in about the same amount of time that I will. The Rivian does most of the time but there is room for improvement.
In my view when the self driving systems cannot even recognize that the car in front of me has or is slowing down anywhere near the same level as I can. That's much less complicated of a thing to figure out than navigating lane changes and turns. Since it's not up to par on that I feel that I don't want to give these systems any more rope to hang me with. One thing I did like on the Rivian is when using the adaptive cruise and driver + when going around turns through the mountains it will slow down from your set speed to negotiate the turn fairly reliably in the way a person would. Again it's still not 100% but it's getting better.
Let's get that down before we add more to it. Elon is right, for the tech to advance someone has to risk themselves it's just not going to be me or my family. I don't care if we ever reach the self driving ability or if it takes another 50 years to do so. I think Elon is just thinking that if they can get the tech perfected eventually it will save many more lives than it would take in its infancy while it's getting ironed out. He's not wrong, but it just seems like a really cold way of looking at it and I personally don't agree that we should be putting people in danger to advance this tech.
The other reason why I disagree with the approach of sacrificing people to this is I'm not convinced that cars are the future of transportation for lots of people. Battery tech is advancing and once it gets energy dense enough things like the Jetson 1 and other passenger drone type things will become viable transportation instead of just toys. Personally I'm on the list to buy a blackfly if and when they ever become realistic. We can already get these things to pilot themselves, the tech exists for that today that's better than human pilot level safe.
It's actually easier to do it in an aircraft than in a car because the sky is so much bigger and you aren't going to hit stuff. With radar and transponders you just program it to stay away from other things and weather and it's pretty easy. So why are we throwing people into the meat grinder with self driving cars when that might not even wind up being the end goal?
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s4wrxttcs
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The NHTSA will still register it as an L2 related fatality because they count anything where L2 was on within something like 30 seconds before hand.
The public will also know because the NHTSA dictated to all the manufactures of L2 systems that they have to provide this data to them.
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