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Smithery

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Maybe Tesla is shitty w/ range estimates? 231 miles on a full charge seems well within spec. When I get my R1S perhaps I can say definitely yes or now. I guess we'll see, but I would be disappointed with a loss of 15% as a result of mild temps of + ~30 degrees and a 6k elevation gain
I guarantee you'll be disappointed, then.

It's not about range *estimation* - EV folks tend to learn to ignore the guess-o-meters.

My Tesla is rated at 333wh/mi, and in mild (55+) temps on flat ground it gets that or better.

But climbing a mountain in the cold (30-) and wind, you can easily see it go 500wh/mi... 600wh/mi... even more.

And the Model X is way more aerodynamic than the R1S will be.

This isn't unique to EVs! If you drive an ICE car with an instantaneous MPG display, you can see the same "half as efficient" change in no-time while climbing!

It's just that the flexibility in refueling is completely different than the expectations people have.
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hola29

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I guess we'll see...200 miles to Tahoe for me is my expectation...if I need to stop for 20 cool, but was thinking I would not. We'll see. My friend has driven to Tahoe multiple times in a 2020 Model S without stopping this year from SF, including with me in it....so again, we'll see...


I guarantee you'll be disappointed, then.

It's not about range *estimation* - EV folks tend to learn to ignore the guess-o-meters.

My Tesla is rated at 333wh/mi, and in mild (55+) temps on flat ground it gets that or better.

But climbing a mountain in the cold (30-) and wind, you can easily see it go 500wh/mi... 600wh/mi... even more.

And the Model X is way more aerodynamic than the R1S will be.

This isn't unique to EVs! If you drive an ICE car with an instantaneous MPG display, you can see the same "half as efficient" change in no-time while climbing!

It's just that the flexibility in refueling is completely different than the expectations people have.
 

Denver_Paulie

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Maybe Tesla is shitty w/ range estimates? 231 miles on a full charge seems well within spec. When I get my R1S perhaps I can say definitely yes or now. I guess we'll see, but I would be disappointed with a loss of 15% as a result of mild temps of + ~30 degrees and a 6k elevation gain
Not trying to be a jerk, but there are a lot of factors that go into how far an electric vehicle will go on a full battery. Speed is the number 1 item to consider. There is traditionally 5% to 10% loss of range by going from an 19 inch wheel to a 21 inch wheel - it takes more energy to turn that big, wide wheel. You will lose 30% to 40% of range in very cold weather - it is what it is. Elevation gain also kills range. Sure you will get some back on the return trip, or the other side of the climb, but never as much as it took to get the vehicle up the hill. Running AC or heat also will affect range since it uses battery. Driving in the rain on wet roads causes additional drag and will affect range. Driving fast with a window open affects range. Altering the aerodynamics of the vehicle, like putting Thule/Yakima bars, or even worse, a bike on top of the vehicle, will severely affect range.

I don't want you to be disappointed, but there are lots of events that will easily reduce range by the 15% you mention in your post. The good news is you live in California. Lot's of CCS chargers to use if needed.
 

Denver_Paulie

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I guess we'll see...200 miles to Tahoe for me is my expectation...if I need to stop for 20 cool, but was thinking I would not. We'll see. My friend has driven to Tahoe multiple times in a 2020 Model S without stopping this year from SF, including with me in it....so again, we'll see...

A Model S is a very different car than the Model X. It is more aerodynamic, and a little lighter, so depending on speeds, will go farther than a Model X.
 

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Who knows when I'll get the R1S to test, but repeating myself (again) my expectation is that I can drive from San Francisco to Tahoe, which is 200 miles, without needing to charge. I have done it now 3 times in a Tesla without issue...if the Rivian can't do it so be it, but I will report back once I try it...

I guess we'll see...200 miles to Tahoe for me is my expectation...if I need to stop for 20 cool, but was thinking I would not. We'll see.
A Model S is a very different car than the Model X. It is more aerodynamic, and a little lighter, so depending on speeds, will go farther than a Model X.
 

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kylealden

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I (and I presume P100D) are not trying to convince you that you need more range.
I don't take issue with anything you wrote except your presumption here. P100D explicitly, consistently, insistently is telling everyone on this forum who has different needs that they're wrong and there's only one true answer for range, and has been doing so for months. It's exhausting.

And yes, I own an EV - I'm tired of having to defend my understanding of my own needs. I exhaustively detailed my credentials last time we had one of these pointless spats.

Ultimately the reason I'm engaging at all rather than just muting P100D is that it's not just the one troll - I can deal with the troll. It's the fact that the troll derails half the threads on the forum into the exact same conversation about range tradeoffs, which there are already a hundred threads dedicated to.

Anyway. The smarter thing for me to do is log off.
 

Denver_Paulie

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Who knows when I'll get the R1S to test, but repeating myself (again) my expectation is that I can drive from San Francisco to Tahoe, which is 200 miles, without needing to charge. I have done it now 3 times in a Tesla without issue...if the Rivian can't do it so be it, but I will report back once I try it...

All good. You will figure it out one way or the other. I hope you find what you want, but just remember to keep your personal expectations grounded in the reality of the vehicle's capabilities and the driving conditions. Just a little word of advice when it comes to EV's.

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Scott

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Ultimately the reason I'm engaging at all rather than just muting P100D is that it's not just the one troll - I can deal with the troll. It's the fact that the troll derails half the threads on the forum into the exact same conversation about range tradeoffs, which there are already a hundred threads dedicated to.
I chime in on these "Range is king" discussions for the same reason I correct my idiot uncle every time he posts insanity on Facebook: so other people see that there are other points of view and not to just accept it. Also in this case, I think the American EV consumer is overly fixated on range in an unhealthy way for our EV transition. We don't need every car to have a 500 mile range. It is an extremely inefficient use of resources.
 

kylealden

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I chime in on these "Range is king" discussions for the same reason I correct my idiot uncle every time he posts insanity on Facebook: so other people see that there are other points of view and not to just accept it. Also in this case, I think the American EV consumer is overly fixated on range in an unhealthy way for our EV transition. We don't need every car to have a 500 mile range. It is an extremely inefficient use of resources.
Bingo! There's a reason EV manufacturers like to point out that the average American drives something like 20 miles a day: Because it's true.

Everything has tradeoffs, including adding more battery cells; Tesla could make a 1000 mile Model 3 tomorrow by stuffing it to the gills with batteries and charging 150k for it, but it would be a deeply compromised and unnecessary product.

Range is a continuum and everyone has a sweet spot; insisting that the only answer is "more" is like always supersizing your fries just because you sometimes get hangry. Maybe good for you, but not terribly good general nutrition advice.

(It's also worth noticing that range improvements in EVs were dramatic until they suddenly stabilized in the low-to-mid 300s over the last few years; automakers found a "good enough" sweet spot that more than covered daily driving while being good enough for road trips with existing infrastructure. Some edge cases will need more, but it's overkill for most. Even Tesla isn't moving forward with the longer-range Plaid variants and frankly I'll be extremely surprised if the supposed 500-mile Cybertruck materializes in the next five years too.)
 

Smithery

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Bingo! There's a reason EV manufacturers like to point out that the average American drives something like 20 miles a day: Because it's true.
I would never argue that every single Leaf buyer should go for the 226mi pack instead of the 149mi pack.

I would never argue the Bolt is compromised with a ~260mi range because it should be more.

I would never argue the MachE is terrible at 238mi when it should be 338mi.

The Polestar 2 jumping from 233 to 249mi in one model year doesn't make it the car *for me*, but I don't complain about it on anyone else's behalf.

Those are all commuter cars or mid-range road trip cars, designed to NEVER be out of range from a charger, where your statement holds.

These trucks are designed and marketed for adventures away from home and away from the paved road.

The average R1T driver is not going to be the average commuter. And the range calculus should not be considered to be the same as for the average commuter car.

I agree with you in another reply that this has gone on ad nauseam and is no longer productive.

I don't agree that that the people analyzing the Rivian the same way as a Leaf are correct.

And I don't agree that people who have done the calculus about range and their own climate who might be right when their truck is new... Will also still be right 5 years later when degradation has reared its ugly head.

I truly hope everybody who gets a mid-pack fully convinced the range will be enough for them are right.

But I know that not all of them will be.
 

Scott

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These trucks are designed and marketed for adventures away from home and away from the paved road.

The average R1T driver is not going to be the average commuter. And the range calculus should not be considered to be the same as for the average commuter car.
Much like Land Rovers, I expect most Rivian's to never stray too far from pavement or the charging infrastructure. People buy brands like this aspirationally more often than for their reality. Hummers, Jeeps, Land Rovers, trucks, etc are often just used as city / suburban people movers.

But I agree with your general sentiment: if your pattern is that of most American drivers, you don't need the max pack. If you actually plan on venturing well off the beaten path, max pack makes a lot of sense (as it does for a few other use cases: towing, etc).

Saying "range is king" for everyone is wrong, just as much as saying "no one needs the max pack" is wrong. I have been very vocal in my belief that too many people fixate on range, but for me personally if the R1S gets its "max pack" option I will likely select it, because there are 3 or 4 places I like to go in the PNW that I just can't get to at all without the extra range given the current charging infrastructure. It is about knowing your personal needs and addressing them.
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