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Rivian Driver+ vs Ford BlueCruise vs Tesla AutoPilot: What are expectations at launch for Driver+

rraj2k81

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This is definitely true while we're still at L2/L2+. As we progress more toward L4/L5, the vehicles will begin to communicate with one another and mitigate entire situations that humans would induce.

As I said above, I work actively with partners of my company on these types of systems. They are just over the horizon (8-ish years). They will be a completely different paradigm for operating a motor vehicle. Think more like your car will be a people mover. One of the demographics I hear a lot about is enabling the very young/old. If your vehicle is just a people mover, it's probably okay to send your kid to school in it while mom/dad stay at home. Same with aging parents. It might enable some of them to live independently for a little longer.
I agree with you on the need for fully automated/self driving vehicles, as this would significantly improve the quality of life of people with disabilities, handicap, the elderly or even people who have to commute long distances due to their life circumstances and be able to go to work and not be worried about the drive or many other scenarios like this. And I really wish it would come sooner than later.

But unfortunately a fully automated self driving technology will not be complete unless you have a transportation system that is fully integrated with each other, where all the vehicles communicate with each other via a common/standard protocol, communicate with the highway system and local roads to know of constructions, traffic conditions, accidents and importantly when emergency vehicles are on the road, communicate with traffic lights and pedestrian conditions.

I know Volvo and Polestar are working on a network of cars system, where their cars will constantly communicate with each other to evaluate road conditions.

Unfortunately this is not the case right now, as every auto manufacturer does their own version of self driving/autonomous driving and each react differently to different conditions which makes this entire ecosystem very disjointed and frankly unreliable to be fully automated.

Here is a video of what I am talking about. Waymo which has been working on their L4/L5 (?) self driving taxi got completely stuck on the middle of a major intersection when it could not figure how to negotiate a blocked off section of the road due to road construction, and a driver had to be dispatched to drive the car to complete the journey,

Waymo Self Driving Taxi Fumbles In Construction Zone, Blocks Traffic | JJRicks Rides With Waymo #54 - YouTube

Now imagine if an autonomous system that gets lost in the middle of an emergency situation and the driver under full complacency decides to take a nap behind the wheel ?

All I am saying is L4/L5 Autonomy in motor vehicles cannot be fully achieved until there is a fully integrated transportation system, and until then L2 is as high as we can go.

Maybe I am wrong, and in 10 years from now, I will be the one calling a Waymo cab and feeling confident enough to take a nap while it drives me to work.
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svet-am

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Totally agree with you @rraj2k81 . Given the nature of my work I can't talk about what partners are doing specifically. But, I can say that _all_ of the L4/L5 systems I'm aware of that are _seriously_ being developed (not by Waymo and other Silicon Valley FAANG companies) by serious automakers, Vehicle-2-Vehicle comms is at the core of everything, usually based in some form on techniques like Car-to-X.
https://www.daimler.com/innovation/case/connectivity/car-to-x-2.html

That's currently a Daimler spec but there are efforts to craft an industry standard out of it.
 

SANZC02

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Totally agree with you @rraj2k81 . Given the nature of my work I can't talk about what partners are doing specifically. But, I can say that _all_ of the L4/L5 systems I'm aware of that are _seriously_ being developed (not by Waymo and other Silicon Valley FAANG companies) by serious automakers, Vehicle-2-Vehicle comms is at the core of everything, usually based in some form on techniques like Car-to-X.
https://www.daimler.com/innovation/case/connectivity/car-to-x-2.html

That's currently a Daimler spec but there are efforts to craft an industry standard out of it.
If that is what is required we are more than a couple of lifetimes away because of all of the existing vehicles on the road. The only way that would be likely would be if they have specific roads dedicated only to autonomous vehicles and I do not think that will happen, except maybe cabs in downtown areas. One of the better use cases for autonomous would be highway trips and that requirement would virtually exclude that.
 

Craigins

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Totally agree with you @rraj2k81 . Given the nature of my work I can't talk about what partners are doing specifically. But, I can say that _all_ of the L4/L5 systems I'm aware of that are _seriously_ being developed (not by Waymo and other Silicon Valley FAANG companies) by serious automakers, Vehicle-2-Vehicle comms is at the core of everything, usually based in some form on techniques like Car-to-X.
https://www.daimler.com/innovation/case/connectivity/car-to-x-2.html

That's currently a Daimler spec but there are efforts to craft an industry standard out of it.
This is how i explain it to everyone i know. Essentially you need swarm type ai with v2v communication. Not all would need to be self driving but a large majority would be needed. Just my swag but I'd say 80%. We are a long way off.
 

CommodoreAmiga

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But unfortunately a fully automated self driving technology will not be complete unless you have a transportation system that is fully integrated with each other, where all the vehicles communicate with each other via a common/standard protocol, communicate with the highway system and local roads to know of constructions, traffic conditions, accidents and importantly when emergency vehicles are on the road, communicate with traffic lights and pedestrian conditions.
V2V communication will come, and it will help... But it will not be universal or required. If you wanted to require it, then you'd push people from lower socioeconomic status off the roads -- they can't afford a new fancy car. You'd also push bicyclists, mopeds, and motorcycles off the road. Even if you could do that (as a motorcyclist, that bothers me) you'd still have to account for farm equipment or other non-vehicle users of the road. And even if you were able to build special roads where only fully-autonomous vehicles were allowed, they'd still need to handle the edge-case of one of their own vehicles failing, and becoming an obstical that doesn't communicate their status correctly.

Ultimately, V2V communication will provide information that can help autonomous functions, but they must be able to sense and react to external factors without those messages, as well.
 

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AdamsFan1983

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Uh yeah - I know what ISO 26262 is. I sit right next to the engineer responsible for implementing the process (which is designed by people). You can't remove them from the process. The process assumes that everyone's acting in good faith to a certain degree. I've worked with a robotics/computer vision systems company that designed IED clearing machines, and was subsequently acquired by Ford. Dropping non-deterministic code inside of a safety-critical system is a real concern since there's always going to be some scenario that wasn't anticipated or tested for. This even before factoring in the "ethics" of AI controlled system, where a collision may be unavoidable, or a cyber attack of some form occurs.

I also know the inner workings of the automotive industry, having spent 28 years in it on both the OEM and supply side. Don't even begin to compare the test and safety standards applied in avionics to automotive. Corners can and will be cut somewhere, as they always do. When this is combined with their commodity strategy, the same flaws are propagated across fleets of hundreds of thousands of vehicles. The GM ignition switch and Takata airbag scandals are just two examples of cost-cutting measures gone bad. When it comes to regulatory compliance, let's also ignore the recent history of software-enabled emissions-related scandals.

I'm not trolling at all actually. I'm very serious about this, and would prefer not to have the system at all on my vehicle if it was possible, just as I'd rather have a manual transmission in all my vehicles. Passive safety through increased situational awareness is all fine and good, but no robot driver for me. No need or desire to fly anywhere ever.

Note that I'm not implying that any of the above will be done by Rivian or its workforce. I simply don't trust this specific technology regardless of who's implementing it.
If you really want a manual transmission in your vehicle, I’ve got some news for you my friend. This isn’t the place for you. :)
 

R_1_T

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If you really want a manual transmission in your vehicle, I’ve got some news for you my friend. This isn’t the place for you. :)
You need to read a little more closely. I stated that MT is my PREFERENCE, not a requirement. I also have a SO to be considerate of, so there's that aspect as well.
 

AdamsFan1983

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You need to read a little more closely. I stated that MT is my PREFERENCE, not a requirement. I also have a SO to be considerate of, so there's that aspect as well.
Well, I dont know about you, but I don't spend $70,000 on purchases that lack the features I prefer... In either case bringing up transmission preferences on a forum dedicated to a vehicle that lacks a transmission is kind of silly.

Its like saying, well I prefer smoked salmon on bagel w/ cream cheese, so this slice of pizza clearly isn't for me....
 

R_1_T

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Well, I dont know about you, but I don't spend $70,000 on purchases that lack the features I prefer... In either case bringing up transmission preferences on a forum dedicated to a vehicle that lacks a transmission is kind of silly.

Its like saying, well I prefer smoked salmon on bagel w/ cream cheese, so this slice of pizza clearly isn't for me....
Typical PR spin - only focus on the part of the discussion that suit your narrative...
Ignore the needs of the spouse and the rest of my original post entirely.
 

AdamsFan1983

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Typical PR spin - only focus on the part of the discussion that suit your narrative...
Ignore the needs of the spouse and the rest of my original post entirely.
Well, look, thats your prerogative. If you and your spouse want to spend that amount of money to tolerate two cars that neither of you really prefer, so that either can meet both your needs at any give time. Fine.

For the amount of money, my spouse and I have chosen to each get a vehicle we each individually prefer. She doesn't get involved in my decision, and I don't get involved in hers.
 

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TessP100D

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Well, look, thats your prerogative. If you and your spouse want to spend that amount of money to tolerate two cars that neither of you really prefer, so that either can meet both your needs at any give time. Fine.

For the amount of money, my spouse and I have chosen to each get a vehicle we each individually prefer. She doesn't get involved in my decision, and I don't get involved in hers.
Ok guys. Let’s calm down.
 

Jarico75

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I understand about all the bs claims crazy Elon says.

it’s all bs.

adaptive cruise control is pretty good.
FSD.
No way. Ever
The title of this thread says Auto Pilot. FSD and Auto Pilot are two different things on a Tesla. You have to pay extra for FSD, but Auto Pilot was an standard feature on my model Y. The purpose of the thread is to compare features and spark a discussion on everyone's expectations. Let's not assume that everyone here is going to misuse any of these systems. If that is the case then we should just stop driving because people have been misusing cars and their features since inception.
 

TessP100D

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The title of this thread says Auto Pilot. FSD and Auto Pilot are two different things on a Tesla. You have to pay extra for FSD, but Auto Pilot was an standard feature on my model Y. The purpose of the thread is to compare features and spark a discussion on everyone's expectations. Let's not assume that everyone here is going to misuse any of these systems. If that is the case then we should just stop driving because people have been misusing cars and their features since inception.
As far as I’m concerned, TESLA driver assist programs all junk.
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