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Rivian battery overheating during charging in cool weather

Zybane

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Wow this is pretty bad. 96 kW charging at 30% battery capacity on a 350 kW charger on a 37F day.

Has anyone else seen this bad?
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WSea

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Nope. Maybe I’ve been lucky haven’t had a bad EA experience
 

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From the 2023.02.0 release notes. Will be interesting to see if this makes any difference.

"Addressed a rare case where Direct Current Fast Charger (DCFC) was slowed due to insufficient battery cooling."
 

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No. At least not for more than a few seconds. I typically get throttled to between 120-150 kW after a brief 200+ kW peak, but it usually seems to settle in around 180s for the majority of the middle of the curve.

Another question - how much better/worse or the same is it on a RAN DCFC? Every anecdotal comment I have noticed in the forums from someone using a RAN station is that it was much better. I really hope @OutofSpecKyle gets around to doing a few sessions at the RAN DCFCs to see something more objective.
 

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WSea

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No. At least not for more than a few seconds. I typically get throttled to between 120-150 kW after a brief 200+ kW peak, but it usually seems to settle in around 180s for the majority of the middle of the curve.

Another question - how much better/worse or the same is it on a RAN DCFC? Every anecdotal comment I have noticed in the forums from someone using a RAN station is that it was much better. I really hope @OutofSpecKyle gets around to doing a few sessions at the RAN DCFCs to see something more objective.
I've used RAN 4x now. My unscientific observations are that it may have a more conservitive charge curve...maybe a bit more linear v. an actual 'curve'. The peak I've hit was 218. On RAN I've never seen the rollercoaster curve I've seen sometimes on EA 350 units when the cooling kicks in. My guess or hope is that Rivian updates the thermal management to anticipate charging heat v. cooling when it's too late and temporarily reduces charging speed.
 

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I don’t see why it would be any better on RAN but if people think so I’ll take a trip out and give it a go
Wait for the new update. Wasting your time otherwise.
 

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With Rivian's inaugural pack, they are using a sandwiched cooling plate to warm/cool the pack. This is of course going to have nowhere near the ability to wick away heat that Tesla's in-pack cooling has, so heat throttling is going to happen. The reason cold weather does not help this much is the fact that the center of the packs (they are stacked) are well insulated from the outside temperature, so the main way for the heat to escape remains that single sandwiched cold plate. This is a physical thermal bottle-neck that is designed into the system and cannot be helped.

Why did they not put cooling ribbons between the cylinders the way Tesla does? Cost, and manufacturing difficulty. I expect Rivian's packs to evolve and get better at thermal management, but this is a good way to get decent cooling without breaking the bank as they try to ramp up. It is similar to how Ford & GM are doing it, except Rivian is using Tesla style cylindrical cells.

For those watching the pack tech closely as I am, I will add that the sandwiched cold plate design has another characteristic that could easily cause problems down the road. Because there are vertical banks of 2170s both above and below the cold plate, both cooling and heating will potentially be quite different between the upper and lower packs. When attempting to cool the pack during DCFC, the pack under the cold plate will get the bulk of the cooling due to thermal dynamics. Keeping the _whole_ pack at an ideal temperature becomes impossible, the pack on top of the plate will always be much hotter.

Heating the pack will have the reverse problem, but since heating is not as critical as cooling, that should have less of an impact on the life of the packs. Just based on common sense, one would expect the packs sitting on top of the cooling plate to fail before the lower ones.

Time will tell, and I am certain that the design will evolve.
 

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I don’t see why it would be any better on RAN but if people think so I’ll take a trip out and give it a go
Thanks! My only thought would be that it initiates a more proactive thermal management algorithm from the start rather than a reactive one. Kind of makes sense if the truck and DCFC are synced as soon as you plug in to know exactly what to ask for and what to give. And when and how to kick in thermal management actions earlier. As I understand it, one of the many challenges with all of these 3rd party chargers are the need to "know the curve" for every manufacturer and every vehicle out there and they obviously don't.

Appreciate your focus this year.
 

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With Rivian's inaugural pack, they are using a sandwiched cooling plate to warm/cool the pack. This is of course going to have nowhere near the ability to wick away heat that Tesla's in-pack cooling has, so heat throttling is going to happen. The reason cold weather does not help this much is the fact that the center of the packs (they are stacked) are well insulated from the outside temperature, so the main way for the heat to escape remains that single sandwiched cold plate. This is a physical thermal bottle-neck that is designed into the system and cannot be helped.

Why did they not put cooling ribbons between the cylinders the way Tesla does? Cost, and manufacturing difficulty. I expect Rivian's packs to evolve and get better at thermal management, but this is a good way to get decent cooling without breaking the bank as they try to ramp up. It is similar to how Ford & GM are doing it, except Rivian is using Tesla style cylindrical cells.

For those watching the pack tech closely as I am, I will add that the sandwiched cold plate design has another characteristic that could easily cause problems down the road. Because there are vertical banks of 2170s both above and below the cold plate, both cooling and heating will potentially be quite different between the upper and lower packs. When attempting to cool the pack during DCFC, the pack under the cold plate will get the bulk of the cooling due to thermal dynamics. Keeping the _whole_ pack at an ideal temperature becomes impossible, the pack on top of the plate will always be much hotter.

Heating the pack will have the reverse problem, but since heating is not as critical as cooling, that should have less of an impact on the life of the packs. Just based on common sense, one would expect the packs sitting on top of the cooling plate to fail before the lower ones.

Time will tell, and I am certain that the design will evolve.
Radial cooling vs axial cooling. Center of the cells is always going to be the hottest, regardless of your approach with cylindrical cells. You could do both and it would still be true.
 

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I've used RAN 4x now. My unscientific observations are that it may have a more conservitive charge curve...maybe a bit more linear v. an actual 'curve'. The peak I've hit was 218. On RAN I've never seen the rollercoaster curve I've seen sometimes on EA 350 units when the cooling kicks in. My guess or hope is that Rivian updates the thermal management to anticipate charging heat v. cooling when it's too late and temporarily reduces charging speed.
The charge rate for the vehicle is controlled by the vehicle, so who's DCFC you connect it to should have no effect on the charging curve. The exceptions to this are the amount of maximum power the dcfc station can provide to the vehicle. Obviously, a station with the ability to provide more power will start at a higher rate than one with lower capacity. DCFC stations can also throttle back what they are providing if they need to do so to keep from overheating, or if they are splitting power.

But the actual charging curve is controlled by the vehicle.
 
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Radial cooling vs axial cooling. Center of the cells is always going to be the hottest, regardless of your approach with cylindrical cells. You could do both and it would still be true.
That is absolutely true, and one of the critical challenges to pack thermal management. I am actually a fan of the cold plate design for that reason. I am not in their design room to know of any obstacles to adding a 2nd cold plate on top of the upper pack, but I think it would he a way to significantly reduce the bottleneck that exists in the current design. It would not address the imbalance, but it would sure keep that top pack a lot cooler.
 

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The charge rate for the vehicle is controlled by the vehicle, so who's DCFC you connect it to should have no effect on the charging curve. The exceptions to this are the amount of maximum power the dcfc station can provide to the vehicle. Obviously, a station with the ability to provide more power will start at a higher rate than one with lower capacity. DCFC stations can also throttle back what they are providing if they need to do to to keep from overheating, or they are splitting power.

But the actual charging curve is controlled by the vehicle.
My post stated 'my unscientific observations.' There could also be other factors at play here too with my RAN experiences. One was at about 70 degrees, one at about 55-60. The last two were in the upper 40s. All 4x charges were after driving at least 2 hours. And all 4x the charger was in the nav and vehicle provided preconditioning.
 

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My post stated 'my unscientific observations.' There could also be other factors at play here too with my RAN experiences. One was at about 70 degrees, one at about 55-60. The last two were in the upper 40s. All 4x charges were after driving at least 2 hours. And all 4x the charger was in the nav and vehicle provided preconditioning.
Indeed it did. Just trying to he helpful.
:cool: đź‘Ť
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