Rivian Amazon Van starts deliveries making lots of noise

[Pherdnut]

An off-road option would be nice, but definitely siding on the safety-first argument. Chicago pedestrians are constantly getting clobbered by aggressive Chicago cyclists because they don't hear them coming and they don't look. It doesn't have to be that loud. Just loud enough.

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[Rhidan]

The regulation is not exclusive to EVs

Fair. But isn't a hybrid just an electric vehicle at slow speeds?

 

[electruck]

The noises made by electric vehicles are far less obnoxious than those made by factory Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, commercial diesel trucks, or the sea of vehicles with aftermarket or malfunctioning exhausts (there is a massive aftermarket for exhaust mods because many people want their vehicles to be louder) . Heck, it's even less obnoxious than the cooling fans of ICE and BEVs. Anyone recall the volume of the fan on the R1T during the interview at the finish line of the Rebelle? Frankly, the mandated EV noises are still going to be reducing overall noise pollution relative to the bulk of vehicles on the road.

 

[electruck]

That's certainly one way to look at it. There would be other people who will say we can't afford to delay the conversion from ICE to EV, and placing new regulations exclusively on vehicles that represent only 1% of the cars on the road may lead to that delay.

There's an infinite list of excuses like that but the reality is that the pedestrian safety noise is far less likely to delay the conversion than many of the other issues people have - debates over whether it is truly beneficial to move to BEV, exclusive use of touchscreen interfaces, range anxiety and... the simple fear of change.

From a pure safety perspective, I would also argue that the regulations shouldn't be limited to hybrid and BEVs. Many modern 4-cylinder ICE vehicles are near silent at low speed and the regulations should be applied equally to these vehicles. This would also eliminate any excuses about the potential to delay the conversion from ICE to BEV.

 

[DucRider]

Fair. But isn't a hybrid just an electric vehicle at slow speeds?

Some manufacturers would want you to believe so and even tout their hybrids as "self charging" EVs.
The common application of an EV definition requires it to obtain the battery charge from a source other than an ICE.

 

[discsinthesky]

This is the sort of thing that may turn people away from electric vehicles, or at the very least diminish one of the benefits in switching from an ICE vehicle. It seems sort of silly to use the noise of a combustion engine as the baseline for pedestrian safety, and develop systems for an EV to match that sound level.

I'm not trying to downplay the real safety concerns others have raised. But it seems like there could be other solutions or options to improve pedestrian safety other than mandating that EVs must be noisy under 18 mph.

YEP. Let's fix our pedestrian/non-motorized infrastructure. The fact that it's basically a death trap for anyone who isn't in their own steel cage is kind of ridiculous. I love EVs, but I hope we figure out that personal vehicles aren't the best solution for every situation.

 

[electruck]

YEP. Let's fix our pedestrian/non-motorized infrastructure. The fact that it's basically a death trap for anyone who isn't in their own steel cage is kind of ridiculous. I love EVs, but I hope we figure out that personal vehicles aren't the best solution for every situation.

I get what you're saying but if personal vehicles are still required in some situations then the issues associated with their use must still be addressed.

 

[timesinks]

The reason it does little is because most (99.9999%) of the time the blind person being warned isn't there.

So we're back to you cutting the seatbelts out of your cars because you don't need them within some confidence interval. Or do you go out to a few more nines when the mitigation is designed to protect your own life rather than somebody else's?

It’s not just blind people who need to hear cars. As a bicycle commuter I need to hear cars approaching me from behind. I can’t be looking backwards all the time. It freaks me the hell out when an EV quietly appears near me that wasn’t there 20 seconds ago.

Exactly. We're not just talking about blind people. Any pedestrian popping out from behind a parked car benefits from being able to hear approaching traffic. Cyclists. Hikers coming out of dense woods onto a forest service road. We are talking about much more than just the visually impaired.

 

[Gshenderson]

Yes, I would find 110 dB fart noises to be offensive and turn me away from buying any vehicle making such noises. But the reality is, the noises being implemented are actually far more subtle and far less offensive than the noises made by many ICE vehicles on the road today. It's also the sort of thing that most people get over quickly after they actually drive an electric vehicle.

Could there be a better way? There almost certainly is but it has yet to be identified, standardized and implemented. This is the best solution we have for now, even if it is full of compromises. We simply can't afford to do nothing while we wait for something better to come along.

I’d submit that we may be attempting to solve a theoretical problem that may not really exist. Are there any stats about more people getting hit by silent EV’s than traditional ICE vehicles? Teslas, Bolts and Priuses have been on the road for years. If this is a real problem, there should be data to support it. Does anyone know if there is?

 

[Gshenderson]

The noises made by electric vehicles are far less obnoxious than those made by factory Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, commercial diesel trucks, or the sea of vehicles with aftermarket or malfunctioning exhausts (there is a massive aftermarket for exhaust mods because many people want their vehicles to be louder) . Heck, it's even less obnoxious than the cooling fans of ICE and BEVs. Anyone recall the volume of the fan on the R1T during the interview at the finish line of the Rebelle? Frankly, the mandated EV noises are still going to be reducing overall noise pollution relative to the bulk of vehicles on the road.

Sorry, but I’m not buying the “because some people love loud cars then EV owners should be OK with their cars making unnecessary noise” argument.

 

[Gshenderson]

Some manufacturers would want you to believe so and even tout their hybrids as "self charging" EVs.
The common application of an EV definition requires it to obtain the battery charge from a source other than an ICE.

I think the point was that at low speeds, the hybrid is only running on the battery / electric motor, and therefore would behave like a full EV as it relates to noise emissions.

 

[DucRider]

I’d submit that we may be attempting to solve a theoretical problem that may not really exist. Are there any stats about more people getting hit by silent EV’s than traditional ICE vehicles? Teslas, Bolts and Priuses have been on the road for years. If this is a real problem, there should be data to support it. Does anyone know if there is?

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812371

Conclusions and Discussions​

■ The results from the HE versus ICE relative comparisons and case-control study indicate that HE vehicles have approximately 20 percent higher likelihood (OR=1.20) of pedestrian crashes than ICE vehicles if all speed maneuvers are included and only the engine type (HE or ICE) is considered, and this likelihood of pedestrian crash of HE vehicles is approximately 50 percent higher if only low-speed maneuvers are considered. ​

 

[fastwheels]

If there is going to be a requirement for EVs to make noise (which I'm not yet convinced we need) then I would suggest that it should be a standardized sound. We are all probably familiar with the beep beep beep that most commercial vehicles make backing up. I have never heard the Amazon van sound before this thread, or the Jetsons sound (related to a vehicle) on the other video clip. Does any blind person know what these sounds mean - or anyone else for that matter? I doubt if more than a few thousand people in the country could identify these sounds as coming from an EV - so these sounds really do nothing to make it safer for pedestrians or bicyclists (of which I am one).

Also, how will regulators set required SPL for these? How do you take into account other noise in the vicinity such as a helicopter going over, police siren a block away, idling motorcycle nearby, or any of the other random sounds that we are continually bombarded with? Every location will have differing and constantly changing background noise.

As was pointed out in an earlier post - there are many ICE vehicles that are very very quiet now. If every EV is making 'safety sounds' then the ICE drivers will be the dangerous ones on the road...

This is a tough question that is going to prove very difficult to solve - and there is no way the agreed upon solution is going to make everyone happy.

 

[RivianuserR1T]

Has anyone contacted customer service to inquire how this will be handled with the R1T and R1S?

 

[timesinks]

I’d submit that we may be attempting to solve a theoretical problem that may not really exist. Are there any stats about more people getting hit by silent EV’s than traditional ICE vehicles? Teslas, Bolts and Priuses have been on the road for years. If this is a real problem, there should be data to support it. Does anyone know if there is?

Contrary to popular belief, regulatory agencies don't just pull this stuff out of their... Well, anyways, in Section 2 (Literature Review) Subsection 1 (CRASH INCIDENCE: HYBRID VERSUS NON-HYBRID VEHICLES), you'll find your answer. (tl--dr? quiet cars appear close to twice as hazardous to pedestrians).

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