Babbuino

Well-Known Member
First Name
Manuel
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
646
Reaction score
874
Location
Florida
First Name
Manuel
Vehicles
Audi A3
Occupation
DESIGN engineer
I am not as concerned about the range numbers. I think they will be in the range of what they have been estimating.

They have been putting thousands of miles on these test mules over the last 18 months. If the numbers were going to be way off and not attainable, they would have adjusted the estimated range on the web site.
I think it may have been CS. Let me see if I can find it.

I wonder if it's even legal to sell vehicles that haven't completed EPA testing? Deliveries start in the next 30 days and were pushed back - it seems to me that they would be cutting it awfully close to have not completed the testing and counting on a government agency to move quick. I suppose their website does say "pending review" which could mean their own review ;)
I believe they stated that they are waiting for the official one. They already have their own numbers.
Personally I'm OK with Rivian waiting for the official results to give us a solid number [they already mentioned 300+].
They only have 1 chance to show they are doing things right, so saying any number either higher or lower than the official EPA range, could result in people complaining even more... I guess they can't make everyone happy.
It wouldn't surprise me that we'll be getting the official numbers in a week or 2. For example the Mach e got the official range at the end of Nov, and the first vehicles started selling on Dec.





Advertisement

 

LaunchGreen

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2021
Messages
11
Reaction score
36
Location
California
Vehicles
Range Rover
I believe they stated that they are waiting for the official one. They already have their own numbers.
Personally I'm OK with Rivian waiting for the official results to give us a solid number [they already mentioned 300+].
They only have 1 chance to show they are doing things right, so saying any number either higher or lower than the official EPA range, could result in people complaining even more... I guess they can't make everyone happy.
It wouldn't surprise me that we'll be getting the official numbers in a week or 2. For example the Mach e got the official range at the end of Nov, and the first vehicles started selling on Dec.
oh ya, i'm 100% with you that they should be waiting for the official. just find it curious that we don't have them when it was "deliveries in june" until a month ago. Maybe the EPA is nimble, I don't know.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
They only have 1 chance to show they are doing things right,
I'm not sure that's true. One of the more bizarre aspects of the test is that the car must be charged to 100% and left overnight before the dyno runs are done. Evidently Tesla discovered that the lab had left a door open over night, requested and got a retest and picked up 3 mi.
 

Trandall

Well-Known Member
First Name
Travis
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
351
Reaction score
647
Location
Upstate NY
First Name
Travis
Vehicles
Subaru Ascent, Honda Accord hybrid
Occupation
Construction Management
I actually don't remember!

Is this one of those things on this forum where someone planted an idea of what they hoped/suspected would happen, and the mob-brain ran with it?

Or did Rivian actually officially announce that EPA numbers would be released to the public in a few weeks?

If the later, I'd honestly missed it and would love to learn more about when that was.
I emailed CS in February and inquired about EPA range for the different wheel configurations and that I would like to see them before I made my final selection and how this would impact delivery timing, oh the naivete, and they stated that EPA testing was ongoing and results would be out "soon"... Again this was in February 2021. I'm also not aware of Rivian ever stating a hard date and we have come to understand that there reference to soon is based on a geological frame of reference, lets hope it doesn't turn into a astrological scale.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
I emailed CS in February and inquired about EPA range for the different wheel configurations...
They can't give you that. The EPA tests aren't run for various wheel configurations. They are run for one and I think there may be some formal requirement that it be the wheel that will be on most of the cars they think they will sell but that recollection is hazy. Thus the EPA rated range, and more important, rated consumption, will be for one particular wheel. As people order and drive the car with different wheels data will start to come in on how those other wheel choices effect rated consumption and that information will circulate.

While on the subject: the three variables are range, battery size and consumption;

range = size*consumption

We know they won't tell us what the battery size is and they probably won't tell us what the consumption is but it is probably, as it is in the case of Tesla, hidden on one of the displays or in an API such that we can figure it out and thus deduce roughly what the battery size is. For example, TeslaFi, a service that uses the API to log data from the car tells me that at a recent charge I took on 52.86 kWh which is 55% of the battery and that this granted me 190.74 rated miles. These numbers imply usable battery capacity of 96.1 kW and rated consumption of 277 Wh/mi. These are close to the actual numbers. Averaging a few charges to average down the rounding refines the errors.
 
Last edited:

BoltEVowner

Well-Known Member
First Name
Charles
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
47
Reaction score
78
Location
West Georgia, dangerously close to Alabama
First Name
Charles
Vehicles
Chevy BoltEV, Chevy Volt, RAV4, Winnebago View
Occupation
retired physician
They can't give you that. The EPA tests aren't run for various wheel configurations. They are run for one and I think there may be some formal requirement that it be the wheel that will be on most of the cars they think they will sell but that recollection is hazy. Thus the EPA rated range, and more important, rated consumption, will be for one particular wheel. As people order and drive the car with different wheels data will start to come in on how those other wheel choices effect rated consumption and that information will circulate.
Still speculation, but I believe Rivian knows the numbers already from their perspective. They have stated the 21 inch tires give the most range, and if I were a betting person, and you are right that EPA will only test for a single configuration, Rivian will want to show the greatest range possible, so I am betting it will be the 21 inch tires bare bones configuration, and Rivian will just tell you to adjust your expectations from there....20 inch AT worst range, and the 22 inch grippy tires somewhere in between. Anything that adds to weight or wind resistance, camp kitchen, rails, tent, spare tire, off road upgrade, will all have some negative effects. But they surely already know the difference between the tires is 1%, 3%, 5%, etc. But doubt they will even tell us that, just EPA range for their best option. and YMMV. CS has stated EPA ratings will be out before first delivery, so expecting it soon.
 

azbill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
693
Reaction score
856
Location
Arizona
First Name
Bill
Vehicles
GMC Sierra, Bolt, Sky, MME CA Route 1
Occupation
Engineer
They can't give you that. The EPA tests aren't run for various wheel configurations. They are run for one and I think there may be some formal requirement that it be the wheel that will be on most of the cars they think they will sell but that recollection is hazy.
For the Mach E Ford has different numbers for different wheels. The Premium RWD extended range with 19in wheels has 300 EPA. The CA Route 1 RWD Extended range has 18in wheels and 305 EPA. The only other difference in the cars are some interior options like heated seats/steering and more speakers.

I suspect the Rivian with 21 versus 22 will come in with only a small difference like the Mach E. However, the 20in A/T will likely have more rolling friction and make a slightly bigger difference.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
There is, of course, nothing stopping the manufacturer from paying the lab to do separate runs of the EPA protocol with various wheels if they want to shell out the cash and nothing to stop them from publishing the results of such tests but I don't think there can be more than one EPA rating. Could be wrong about that though.

If you look at the Ford website you do not see any EPA ranges given. Only EPA-estimated or EPA-estimated target ranges. But I think that when you go to pick up the car it has to come with a Monroney sticker with an actual EPA approved number on it.
 
Last edited:

DucRider

Well-Known Member
First Name
Gary
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
1,223
Reaction score
2,015
Location
rRegon
First Name
Gary
Vehicles
Clarity Electric
There is, of course, nothing stopping the manufacturer from paying the lab to do separate runs of the EPA protocol with various wheels if they want to shell out the cash and nothing to stop them from publishing the results of such tests but I don't think there can be more than one EPA rating. Could be wrong about that though.

If you look at the Ford website you do not see any EPA ranges given. Only EPA-estimated or EPA-estimated target ranges. But I think that when you go to pick up the car it has to come with a Monroney sticker with an actual EPA approved number on it.
Tesla tests with their different wheel sizes (at least on the S/X) and get different EPA ratings. But they do it in house and don't have to pay a 3rd party for testing.

1625411481979.png


Here is the application for the 2021 Model S covering the various configurations (the Plaid is a separate Model and application):
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=51337&flag=1
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
Whether they have their own lab or contract it out they still have to pay the lab.
 

DucRider

Well-Known Member
First Name
Gary
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
1,223
Reaction score
2,015
Location
rRegon
First Name
Gary
Vehicles
Clarity Electric
Whether they have their own lab or contract it out they still have to pay the lab.
Once you've purchased the dyno and set up the entire lab, you've essentially "paid" almost all of the costs of running as many tests as you want. I suspect the technicians and other personnel are on salary and not "on call" and paid by the test.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
1,595
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
I suppose it's possible that it could be as you describe at Tesla but in most corporations of its size the test center would be a separate "profit center" or "cost center" or some such. When some other cost center wants to use the services of another cost center they must pay the freight. This covers the salaries, overhead, depreciation, lighting, airconditioning... associated with that cost center. IOW it is treated as a separate business within a business for accounting purposes and this allows management to see if it is profitable to maintain a testing lab or whether they should contract that work out. This mechanism also lets management see to what extent which other cost centers are using the services of the test cost center. Even in a small brewpub in which I was, unfortunately, an investor, it was done this way. The restaurant bought beer from the brewery etc.
 

SeaGeo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brice
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
669
Reaction score
1,052
Location
Seattle
First Name
Brice
Vehicles
Xc60 T8
Occupation
Engineer
They can't give you that. The EPA tests aren't run for various wheel configurations. They are run for one and I think there may be some formal requirement that it be the wheel that will be on most of the cars they think they will sell but that recollection is hazy. Thus the EPA rated range, and more important, rated consumption, will be for one particular wheel. As people order and drive the car with different wheels data will start to come in on how those other wheel choices effect rated consumption and that information will circulate.
As others have noted, they can, and manufacturers do. There's also a note in the EPA documentation and protocols that multiple trims of cars can be tested. Which is obvious when you look at the different trims in the EPA database as @DucRider showed.


oh ya, i'm 100% with you that they should be waiting for the official. just find it curious that we don't have them when it was "deliveries in june" until a month ago. Maybe the EPA is nimble, I don't know.
I think it snuck under the radar for most of us, but the EPA range for the Model S plaid didn't go up until like.... the literal day or two after they had their delivery event. I'm sure I won't be able to find where I think I saw it (low confidence level) but I feel like I saw somewhere that the EPA is running slower than normal to certify results to (surprise surprise).
 

azbill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
693
Reaction score
856
Location
Arizona
First Name
Bill
Vehicles
GMC Sierra, Bolt, Sky, MME CA Route 1
Occupation
Engineer
If you look at the Ford website you do not see any EPA ranges given. Only EPA-estimated or EPA-estimated target ranges. But I think that when you go to pick up the car it has to come with a Monroney sticker with an actual EPA approved number on it.
The numbers on the Ford web site exactly match the Monroney sticker, I looked at many of them before getting mine. CA Route 1 is 305.

MMEepa.jpg
 

Advertisement





 


Advertisement
Top