SeaGeo

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Testing my range anxiety is not the Adventure of my dreams. I'd love it if Rivian stepped up, but any fast-charging network there would be greatly appreciated. I can't speak for anybody else, but paying a reasonable premium for charging at remote stations of this type would be acceptable to me, if it means chargers will be available in potentially low-use locations.
Tangential to your point about spacing and range anxiety: Sioux falls to Fargo is 250 miles. The speed limit in SoDak is 80 mph. It gets stupid cold there, and obviously windy.

So. Who wants to take the first road trip to see family for Christmas from Fargo to Sioux falls with a large pack R1S in 20 degree weather with some snow pack and a 15 mph headwind with an 80 mph speed limit and no intermediate DCFC charger. Not me. 😳 (ABRP thinks that route would take 168% of the battery btw).

Roughly eyeballing things, I think that's the most difficult remaining interstate gap of publicly identified near term DCFC 100kw+ locations. Hopefully EA's great plains implementation is denser than RAN and includes a stop in Watertown, SD at a minimum. Otherwise BEV won't be realistic for traveling through that area anytime soon with anything other than an EPA 400 mile vehicle. Assuming ABRP is reasonably close, cold weather and a headwind of about 15mph would drop the range of a large pack R1T down to ~150 miles. Shorter than several gaps between RAN stations along I-90 and I-94. 😱





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Autolycus

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This is really getting off topic but is tangentially-related to all of these discussions about network coverage: I really hope Rivian is able to integrate good functionality for route planning and finding charging stations from all main networks. Unified payment would, of course, be amazing as well, but that's maybe a trickier question.

As for route planning, there will be some tricky balances between prioritizing their network vs. other options that might be faster for the route entered. I think it's reasonable for route-planning algorithms to be a little more restricted as far as what stations it will even consider. Maybe something with a touch of priority to their network because they'll have more data on speed and availability of pedestals? (Side question: Do the other networks like EVGo and EA have any way for a car to get real-time data on whether a station is available or not?)

However... at a minimum they should have all of the major charging networks in the POI database for their map system so you can find a station when you want one, regardless of network. Or maybe just some sort of Plugshare app that defaults to public stations with either J1772 or CCS and allows some additional filtering by speed. That way you could at least pull up stations in a specific area you need.
 

BoltEVowner

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This is really getting off topic but is tangentially-related to all of these discussions about network coverage: I really hope Rivian is able to integrate good functionality for route planning and finding charging stations from all main networks. Unified payment would, of course, be amazing as well, but that's maybe a trickier question.

As for route planning, there will be some tricky balances between prioritizing their network vs. other options that might be faster for the route entered. I think it's reasonable for route-planning algorithms to be a little more restricted as far as what stations it will even consider. Maybe something with a touch of priority to their network because they'll have more data on speed and availability of pedestals? (Side question: Do the other networks like EVGo and EA have any way for a car to get real-time data on whether a station is available or not?)

However... at a minimum they should have all of the major charging networks in the POI database for their map system so you can find a station when you want one, regardless of network. Or maybe just some sort of Plugshare app that defaults to public stations with either J1772 or CCS and allows some additional filtering by speed. That way you could at least pull up stations in a specific area you need.
Not off topic. Charging station speed, functionality, and availability? How many waiting to charge? If Google maps can tell you there is a highway slow down, surely there is a way to alert us if the fledgling charging network/s are available. Plugshare and EA apps do give some information, just don't know how accurate it is. Probably depends on users reporting. Once there are a lot more high energy DCFC stations built out, this won't be as much of an issue, unless the rate of BEV adoption outstrips the supply of charging stations, and I think this is unlikely. Would be a huge boost to BEV adoption if Tesla does make its supercharger network available to all for a price...rumored under serious negotiation in other countries, haven't seen anything about the USA.
 

ajdelange

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As for route planning, there will be some tricky balances between prioritizing their network vs. other options that might be faster for the route entered. I think it's reasonable for route-planning algorithms to be a little more restricted as far as what stations it will even consider. Maybe something with a touch of priority to their network because they'll have more data on speed and availability of pedestals? (Side question: Do the other networks like EVGo and EA have any way for a car to get real-time data on whether a station is available or not?)
If weighting their stations more heavily than some one else's station enters into the route planning algorithm then they have put their station in the wrong place! They should not, for example, put a station around Normans Kill (near Albany, N.Y.) given that there is a Walmart with 350 kW EA chargers about 2 miles away.
 
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Autolycus

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If weighting their stations more heavily than some one else's station enters into the route planning algorithm then they have put their station in the wrong place! They should not, for example, put a station around Normans Kill (near Albany, N.Y.) given that there is a Walmart with 350 kW EA chargers about 2 miles away.
Hmm... Was that first sentence supposed to say "doesn't enter into"? That's exactly the type of situation I would imagine them prioritizing their own chargers in the route planning. If they direct you to an EA charger within 2 miles of a RAN charger, then they're wasting money building that RAN station. Why would it make more sense to build a station near an EA charger if they're not going to prioritize directing you to the RAN station than if they are going to prioritize directing you to the RAN station?

As long as the RAN supports the fastest charging rate that an R1T or R1S will accept anyway, a faster EA charger doesn't provide better functionality for a driver. The RAN station could have some extra advantages though, depending on the final designs: Rivian could have data on which stations are available like Tesla has with its superchargers, simpler interface, and better access for towing.

Maybe I'm just being boneheaded though?
 

NewsCoulomb

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I would argue the EVGO is an established... Intracity network with extremely limited high powered DCFC charging currently. Their website doesn't delineate between 50 and 120+ kw chargers, so defaulting to plugshare (because I got impatient manuals filtering EVGO's site) there's currently 120+kw chargers in like 7 States, and 4 or 5 of them seem to only have 2 or 3 stations. Filtering by 70+ doesn't help their numbers much.
To avoid any arguments over semantics, I'm using "network" in its most basic sense. It is a cohesive set of charging sites with common billing and management. Using the type or comprehensiveness of coverage to determine what is and is not a "network" creates a slippery slope where one can credit or discredit a charging provider's status as a network however it best fits one's argument.

Now, we can have a separate discussion about what constitutes a national network versus a regional network (EVgo currently falls somewhere in between, in my opinion), and we can have another discussion about whether a network supports long-distance, regional, or intercity travel. None of those, however, change EVgo's status as a network.

The GM deal is for ~2750 chargers, with 80% by the end of 2023. From the PR release I've seen, those chargers will still range between 100 and 350 kw (that very wall may be wrong).
It was specifically 2,700 chargers over 5 years. I don't see anything about 80% completion by 2023. Press Release

I was also confused by the "100-350 kW" wording, but we now have example sites to look at. It appears to be, very specifically, a mixture of 100 kW and 350 kW chargers at the same site. This is actually a common build method for EVgo, which has installed a number of mixed charger speed sites in the past.

So, the GM rollout with EVGO is smaller than Rivian's rollout in the same timeframe (Ircisn with 3500+ vs 80% of 2750). Point being, if I'm Rivian, I would be very hesitant to count on *future* sites that are planned by other networks to the extent that I would avoid placing a charger at a location of value. Which I think is why it seems to be spread out a bit more where EA stations are along major interstates, but has consistent spacing through MT, ND, SD, and MN where EA isn't currently (though recently announced).

I personally think much of the DCFC RAN is intended to provide some access quality of service with concern for overall capacity along major routes (hence they've closed it to just Rivian at the moment). If that's the case, any of those QoS based sites shouldn't be relocated simply because EVGO *may* show up there in 2022. Admittedly a decent chunk of their locations are along major highways for that reason, but to me that's a surprisingly big selling point seeing EA stations starting to fill up in my neck of the woods. No joke there were three ID.4s at the same station I visited the other day.

TBH I may be unintentionally arguing against point I thought you were making and may not have been (basically that RAN placement should work around EVGO 100+ kw locations).
Yes, my point was different. I'm not concerned with Rivian's adding chargers to areas that will potentially have future public charging alternatives. My concern is with Rivian's not adding chargers where none (from any network) currently exist.

So to your point, I agree that Rivian shouldn't be making site choices based on future, potential sites from other charging providers. However, my point is, they should use the current gaps in the public charging infrastructure to better inform their site choices (and priorities). As an example, central New Mexico has zero public charging support. Rather than emphasize that region by adding four to five RAN sites (which I think would be appropriate given the distances, terrain, and weather), Rivian is building one RAN site that leaves a large section of Eastern New Mexico uncovered.
 

ajdelange

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Maybe I'm just being boneheaded though?
No, not at all. You raise a very significant point. A route planner is supposed to chose the "optimal" route. But what is your criterion of optimality? Do you want to get there fastest? Or have fewest charging stops? Or have short legs (TB)? I chose those three because I am delighted to discover for the first time today (maybe it has been there sometime and I just didn't see it) that ABRP now lets you chose among those criteria before planning a route for you.

Presumably selection of RAN station locations is done based on some optimality criterion. We don't know what it is but it would seem that giving drivers access to the road less taken would be high on the list of factors. The map lists a proposed location near Norman's Kill on the Albany beltway. There is an EA station with 4 350's, and 4 150's 2 miles. None of them has been used in the last hour or so. Given this I don't see any reason to put a station in Normans Kill but perhaps there are indeed good ones.

The in car Rivian route planner will have its own optimality criteria and one of them may be to maximize visits to the RAN network. There's so much we don't know at this point. Maximizing visits to the RAN network may be mutually beneficial to driver and Rivian in that it maximizes revenue from the network and thus helps cover the considerable capital expense of building it out while at the same time giving Rivian drivers access to a Rivian exclusive set of chargers just as Tesla does. Presumably the in car planner will know what's going on at a station and can route the driver to the RAN station if it is free and to EA if it is not.

I think ABRP is a better planner by far than Teslas (that's why they named it what they did) and I expect it will be better than Rivians too. We'll see.
 

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No, not at all. You raise a very significant point. A route planner is supposed to chose the "optimal" route. But what is your criterion of optimality? Do you want to get there fastest? Or have fewest charging stops? Or have short legs (TB)? I chose those three because I am delighted to discover for the first time today (maybe it has been there sometime and I just didn't see it) that ABRP now lets you chose among those criteria before planning a route for you.

Presumably selection of RAN station locations is done based on some optimality criterion. We don't know what it is but it would seem that giving drivers access to the road less taken would be high on the list of factors. The map lists a proposed location near Norman's Kill on the Albany beltway. There is an EA station with 4 350's, and 4 150's 2 miles. None of them has been used in the last hour or so. Given this I don't see any reason to put a station in Normans Kill but perhaps there are indeed good ones.

The in car Rivian route planner will have its own optimality criteria and one of them may be to maximize visits to the RAN network. There's so much we don't know at this point. Maximizing visits to the RAN network may be mutually beneficial to driver and Rivian in that it maximizes revenue from the network and thus helps cover the considerable capital expense of building it out while at the same time giving Rivian drivers access to a Rivian exclusive set of chargers just as Tesla does. Presumably the in car planner will know what's going on at a station and can route the driver to the RAN station if it is free and to EA if it is not.

I think ABRP is a better planner by far than Teslas (that's why they named it what they did) and I expect it will be better than Rivians too. We'll see.
Rivian has also stated that you will be able to "reserve" a time slot on their RAN. Knowing that you will have an open charger and not have to wait will have benefit in some busy areas/times (holiday travel in California comes to mind). IIRC, Tesla updated their in car routing to show estimated wait times at full Superchargers, but being able to book a time slot could at least theoretically reduce travel time considerably under some circumstances..
Brings up some interesting scenarios. If Rivian A has 1PM booked at a specific location, then Rivian B later routes to that same location arriving at 12:40 PM, will the software let them charge until Rivian A arrives and them boot them off? Or will they have to wait until there is enough free time to complete their desired session? Or will they adjust the route to top off at a different charger? Or stay shorter/longer at a previous stop (if there is one)? Or thousands of other variables.
Good thing they are likely to have a relatively long time to sort this before the RAN is complete and enough Rivians are roaming long distances to potentially create bottlenecks.
 

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No, not at all. You raise a very significant point. A route planner is supposed to chose the "optimal" route. But what is your criterion of optimality? Do you want to get there fastest? Or have fewest charging stops? Or have short legs (TB)? I chose those three because I am delighted to discover for the first time today (maybe it has been there sometime and I just didn't see it) that ABRP now lets you chose among those criteria before planning a route for you.

Presumably selection of RAN station locations is done based on some optimality criterion. We don't know what it is but it would seem that giving drivers access to the road less taken would be high on the list of factors. The map lists a proposed location near Norman's Kill on the Albany beltway. There is an EA station with 4 350's, and 4 150's 2 miles. None of them has been used in the last hour or so. Given this I don't see any reason to put a station in Normans Kill but perhaps there are indeed good ones.

The in car Rivian route planner will have its own optimality criteria and one of them may be to maximize visits to the RAN network. There's so much we don't know at this point. Maximizing visits to the RAN network may be mutually beneficial to driver and Rivian in that it maximizes revenue from the network and thus helps cover the considerable capital expense of building it out while at the same time giving Rivian drivers access to a Rivian exclusive set of chargers just as Tesla does. Presumably the in car planner will know what's going on at a station and can route the driver to the RAN station if it is free and to EA if it is not.

I think ABRP is a better planner by far than Teslas (that's why they named it what they did) and I expect it will be better than Rivians too. We'll see.
I get a bit frustrated by the whole discussion of route planners at this point because, in my opinion, the ultimate goal for EVs and EV automakers needs to be zero reliance on route planners. I planned my first couple 1,000+ mile trips nearly 5 years ago, but I've since stopped. There's simply no way for a route planner (even when it's me) to know what I'm going to want or need mid-trip.

At this point, I pretty much drive and decide on the charging locations along the way. I might have a loose plan about which route I'm taking or specific places I want to stop along the way, but in terms of charging, I decide most of that as I go.

So the biggest thing I'd be looking for Rivian to offer is a *qualitative* assessment of the charging options along my route while I am driving. What that means and would look like is:

I'm heading 75 mph down I-5, and I'm down to 20% battery (say just over 50 miles of range left). When asked/prompted, Rivian's system presents me with charging options along my route and within my range, with a quick breakdown of current real-time availability and status, charging speeds, site configurations, and on-site amenities.

If I want to grab something to eat while I charge, I want to be able to filter by restaurants (possibly saved filters for preferred places/types of places to eat).

If I'm towing a trailer, I want the truck to be smart enough to recognize that and limit the search to charging sites that are trailer-friendly. If no trailer-friendly charging sites are available in my range, I want to know that too and be presented with the best alternatives.

But this route planning BS needs to go. I use navigation *all the time,* but navigation is telling me how I can get were I want to go and what I should expect along the way. Navigation is not, however, telling me what I should be doing to get where I want to go, which is what route planners are attempting to do. I don't need or want my trips curated for me.
 

ajdelange

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On a recent trip we had a stop at a very busy SC planned. The map showed that it was continuously full but I don't remember any estimated wait time being displayed. We just charged elsewhere.

Trip planning is definitely an interesting problem.
 

SANZC02

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Rivian has also stated that you will be able to "reserve" a time slot on their RAN. Knowing that you will have an open charger and not have to wait will have benefit in some busy areas/times (holiday travel in California comes to mind). IIRC, Tesla updated their in car routing to show estimated wait times at full Superchargers, but being able to book a time slot could at least theoretically reduce travel time considerably under some circumstances..
Brings up some interesting scenarios. If Rivian A has 1PM booked at a specific location, then Rivian B later routes to that same location arriving at 12:40 PM, will the software let them charge until Rivian A arrives and them boot them off? Or will they have to wait until there is enough free time to complete their desired session? Or will they adjust the route to top off at a different charger? Or stay shorter/longer at a previous stop (if there is one)? Or thousands of other variables.
Good thing they are likely to have a relatively long time to sort this before the RAN is complete and enough Rivians are roaming long distances to potentially create bottlenecks.
Scheduled/Reserved charge times seems like an odd concept.

Trying to envision how practical that would be based on how the Tesla Super Chargers work, especially in busy locations.
 

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I think ABRP is a better planner by far than Teslas (that's why they named it what they did) and I expect it will be better than Rivians too. We'll see.
Are you using the Premium version? I have tried out ABRP, and currently have a Chevy Bolt and Ford Mach E. I have found that the apps for my cars work just as good as ABRP and give almost exactly the same answers in terms of charging stops and times. And yes I included significant terrain changes in some trips.
 

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I get a bit frustrated by the whole discussion of route planners at this point because, in my opinion, the ultimate goal for EVs and EV automakers needs to be zero reliance on route planners. I planned my first couple 1,000+ mile trips nearly 5 years ago, but I've since stopped. There's simply no way for a route planner (even when it's me) to know what I'm going to want or need mid-trip.

At this point, I pretty much drive and decide on the charging locations along the way. I might have a loose plan about which route I'm taking or specific places I want to stop along the way, but in terms of charging, I decide most of that as I go.

So the biggest thing I'd be looking for Rivian to offer is a *qualitative* assessment of the charging options along my route while I am driving. What that means and would look like is:

I'm heading 75 mph down I-5, and I'm down to 20% battery (say just over 50 miles of range left). When asked/prompted, Rivian's system presents me with charging options along my route and within my range, with a quick breakdown of current real-time availability and status, charging speeds, site configurations, and on-site amenities.

If I want to grab something to eat while I charge, I want to be able to filter by restaurants (possibly saved filters for preferred places/types of places to eat).

If I'm towing a trailer, I want the truck to be smart enough to recognize that and limit the search to charging sites that are trailer-friendly. If no trailer-friendly charging sites are available in my range, I want to know that too and be presented with the best alternatives.

But this route planning BS needs to go. I use navigation *all the time,* but navigation is telling me how I can get were I want to go and what I should expect along the way. Navigation is not, however, telling me what I should be doing to get where I want to go, which is what route planners are attempting to do. I don't need or want my trips curated for me.
It's going to a long time before Fast charging is ubiquitous enough to accommodate that scenario. That is indeed what most would like to see, but even with ICE vehicles and the widespread and ready availability of gas it can still require planning when traveling in remote areas.
When my wife and I are travelling on our motorcycles, we most definitely have to plan ahead for gas (and often meal) stops in many areas where we ride. This means looking at our route ahead of time and often stopping to fill up before the tank is empty to make it to the next reliable fuel stop. We've even been bitten by planning a stop at a gas station that showed open in Google, but in reality was only open on Tuesdays and Friday afternoons (or something like that). The hardware store owner next door asked how much gas we had left, and then directed us back and off route 20 miles to an open station. He keeps a few gallons to sell to those that can't make it (mostly motorcycles).
Someday we will likely reach the ability to wait until your charge is low before looking for a station close by (at least in most areas). But careful planning will sometimes still be required- particularly for an adventure vehicle that is used to roam away from population/civilization.
 

johnbro23

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I wonder if we can ask the publisher behind supercharge.info if they'd be open to adding a "Rivian" tab to their website. As a Tesla owner, I love that site. The work from the OP of this threat is great too, problem is we need a crowd-sourced approach, one person doesn't have the time to keep it updated.
 

ajdelange

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I get a bit frustrated by the whole discussion of route planners at this point because, in my opinion, the ultimate goal for EVs and EV automakers needs to be zero reliance on route planners.
They are of tremendous value as teaching tools for those awaiting delivery especially if this is their first BEV.

At this point, I pretty much drive and decide on the charging locations along the way. I might have a loose plan about which route I'm taking or specific places I want to stop along the way, but in terms of charging, I decide most of that as I go.
That's entirely possible in a Tesla but I see you are driving a Bolt. That's really good news about the status of non-Tesla charging.

So the biggest thing I'd be looking for Rivian to offer is a *qualitative* assessment of the charging options along my route while I am driving.
Tesla gives this and I expect Rivian to be at least as good. Tesla's assessment is quantitative as well as qualitative. When driving a route with which he is familiar most people have a rough plan such as I'll charge at the Walt Whitman or Joyce Kilmer service areas - prefferbly the latter because there is a Nathan's there and I like Nathans (I'm being a little free with the facts here because there is no charging at Whitman AFAIK). So you plug Joyce into the trip planner in the car and set out. As you progress towards it a graph displaying your historical and projected SoC to Joyce Kilmer is updated in real time so you can see how much you will have on board when you get there. Should a tail wind come up so that it looks as if you might get further you can easily change your destination to another charger further along the way. Staus (number of stalls occupied) is continuously displayed for all SC on the map. Rivian can clearly offer this infomation for RAN stations but they can also get it for EA stations.

But this route planning BS needs to go. I use navigation *all the time,* but navigation is telling me how I can get were I want to go and what I should expect along the way. Navigation is not, however, telling me what I should be doing to get where I want to go, which is what route planners are attempting to do. I don't need or want my trips curated for me.
You need to change your perspective. Route planning is very valuable when venturing into an area with which you are not familiar or when contemplating travel in a new vehicle as we are all doing here. It lets you know what to expect and how modifying your optimality criteria change what happens and what the impact of unanticipated events may be. While you can, at least within the Tesla network, generally just jump into the car and go, a wise man would benefit from knowing a little about what's out there. We used to do it with the old Rand McNally road atlases. We have much better tools now.
 

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