R1S Maineiac

Well-Known Member
First Name
Chris
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
80
Reaction score
121
Location
The Foothills of Western Maine
First Name
Chris
Vehicles
2020 Tesla Model X Performance
Occupation
IT governance
Finally, if automating the point names isn't doable, I will probably have to defer to others who are interested in crowdsourcing some of this. In that situation, I can share the map through Google Drive to let others edit. More on that if needed.

This is a great effort, and I'm wondering how you and the community feel about crowdsourcing 'improved' guesses of the locations based upon local knowledge of the proposed sites. For example I'm very familiar with the I-93 corridor from Boston to Canada and suspect Rivian would prefer to utilize the Hooksett rest areas, which are south of the I-89/93 interchange (and have banks of Tesla chargers already) as well as the Franconia Notch parking lot instead of a location in Lincoln, NH (keeping in the sprit of Rivian's desire for chargers in parks 'where you play')

...I'm not certain if this is constructive or not...
I think the park Chargers are going to be "waypoints" with the intent that you will be there for hours hiking, and not need a quick pit stop. Same as Tesla destination Chargers





Advertisement

 

Pathfinder

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2021
Messages
16
Reaction score
22
Location
Colorado
Vehicles
2022 Defender X-Dynamic
For Colorado Rivian has announced they will be installing chargers in all 44 state parks. As others have noted, those are likely to be L2 chargers designed to charge while you're out hiking, etc.
 
OP
OP
A

Autolycus

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
221
Reaction score
334
Location
ATL
Vehicles
ICE only :(
Yes, PlugShare still needs to work on their filters a bit. They put the burden on the charging provider to include charging speed in the profile, which they often don't do. EVgo is a bit of an odd duck right now because they also host a large number of 100 kW chargers, which might or might not be considered "fast," depending on how we look at them.

As for Wyoming, EA might have finally gotten the message on that as they've committed to expanding to that state. The gaps they left on I-25, I-80, and I-90 are indefensible given the purpose of their network.

I suppose my big concern for Rivian is, there are very specific gaps that EV owners from every automaker I know of (including Tesla) have been asking to be addressed. For instance, you're clearly concerned with Eastern Oregon, but as someone from California (with the largest EV-owning population in the United States), how is it that I can't drive from Reno to Bend, OR directly? In any EV. If this is the complete RAN map, it doesn't address that either. From where I'm sitting, the four DC fast charging sites already on Highway 97 in Eastern Oregon are better than the nothing at all we have on Highway 395 in Northern California and Eastern Oregon.

It looks like Rivian will address a worrisome gap in New Mexico, but I don't know whether Truth or Consequences is going to be enough. There's a lot of rough country without adequate coverage. Carlsbad, Roswell, and Socorro all need fast chargers, in my opinion.
I'm glad to hear about Wyoming getting some love from EA in the near future. Those are some long distances and a lot of people drive it when connecting Denver, RMNP, and Yellowstone.

Funny enough, I was using Oregon as an example because I've seen a lot of posts from Oregonians wanting stations outside the typical I-5 routes. It looks like the RAN might allow a direct route from Reno to Bend, btw. It looks to me like Klamath Falls is ~253 miles from Reno. I don't know the area at all, but it looks like there might be some smaller towns maybe halfway from Reno to Klamath Falls that would make it a more comfortable gap, but it should be doable in a Rivian -- although maybe not in winter or at 75mph if that's even possible on those roads.

I'm actually in Atlanta and mostly care about the Southern Appalachians. As I noted, there's a big DCFC wasteland north of Atlanta metro. All of the networks have focused on I-85 and I-75 and have completely ignored all of the US Highway routes that most people actually use when heading to the mountains. One of the first things that made me really pay closer attention to Rivian and drew me to this forum was the RAN announcement's focus on the Blue Ridge Parkway and their map having points in areas I frequent.

I've also spent some time in Colorado and appreciate how critical some of those RAN sites will be in that state--and also the "waypoint" sites! My look at Maine is because I have a close work friend whose family is a coastal town way up near Canada. Closest airport is Bangor and that's a couple hour drive to his parents' place. I'm shocked with all the "hippies" in that part of the world that there aren't more EV chargers!

The big gap I see in California that shocks me from Rivian is near the lower Sierra Nevadas. Surely that area has a lot of outdoor enthusiasts? The charging networks all look really sparse for access to King's Canyon and Sequia. Really surprising to not see some RAN sites closer to there.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure, and I love seeing other people's perspectives like yours. Charging is such a region thing as far as the needs and resources go!
 

NewsCoulomb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
California
Vehicles
Bolt EV, Ranger Electric
there is not much level 3 charging available in Maine anyway, outside of Tesla. The state is helping out, but all of their dcfc stations top out at 50 kW.
My understanding is that most are actually 62.5 kW. It won't matter for Tesla owners with a CHAdeMO adapter, which is limited to 50 kW, but it represents a 20% increase in charging speed for native CCS/CHAdeMO EVs that can charge faster than 50 kW. It is unfortunate that they didn't pair the chargers to give them a peak charging speed of 125 kW when only one is in use, but it's a decent start.

It does look like EA only got two chargers into Maine on their way to Bangor before they gave up.
 

R1S Maineiac

Well-Known Member
First Name
Chris
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
80
Reaction score
121
Location
The Foothills of Western Maine
First Name
Chris
Vehicles
2020 Tesla Model X Performance
Occupation
IT governance
My understanding is that most are actually 62.5 kW. It won't matter for Tesla owners with a CHAdeMO adapter, which is limited to 50 kW, but it represents a 20% increase in charging speed for native CCS/CHAdeMO EVs that can charge faster than 50 kW. It is unfortunate that they didn't pair the chargers to give them a peak charging speed of 125 kW when only one is in use, but it's a decent start.

It does look like EA only got two chargers into Maine on their way to Bangor before they gave up.

guess they don't believe in " if you build it, they will come"
 

NewsCoulomb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
California
Vehicles
Bolt EV, Ranger Electric
I'm glad to hear about Wyoming getting some love from EA in the near future. Those are some long distances and a lot of people drive it when connecting Denver, RMNP, and Yellowstone.

Funny enough, I was using Oregon as an example because I've seen a lot of posts from Oregonians wanting stations outside the typical I-5 routes. It looks like the RAN might allow a direct route from Reno to Bend, btw. It looks to me like Klamath Falls is ~253 miles from Reno. I don't know the area at all, but it looks like there might be some smaller towns maybe halfway from Reno to Klamath Falls that would make it a more comfortable gap, but it should be doable in a Rivian -- although maybe not in winter or at 75mph if that's even possible on those roads.
Yes, I've heard the same thing from people in Oregon as well, and it does seem as though a number of them are also glossing over Highway 395. Yes, Klamath Falls is an option, but I was also just using Bend as an example. Klamath Falls requires you to drive out of the way if you're otherwise heading up Highway 395 (say, to Idaho).

In winter, no, you wouldn't be able to make it from Reno to Klamath Falls on a single battery charge, even if the roads are plowed. They are posted 55 mph, but most of the locals do go 15-20 mph over.

To me, it's such a simple solution that it's aggravating that nothing has been done so far. Susanville and Alturas are no-brainers, and someplace like Adin would be another decent candidate.

I'm actually in Atlanta and mostly care about the Southern Appalachians. As I noted, there's a big DCFC wasteland north of Atlanta metro. All of the networks have focused on I-85 and I-75 and have completely ignored all of the US Highway routes that most people actually use when heading to the mountains. One of the first things that made me really pay closer attention to Rivian and drew me to this forum was the RAN announcement's focus on the Blue Ridge Parkway and their map having points in areas I frequent.

I've also spent some time in Colorado and appreciate how critical some of those RAN sites will be in that state--and also the "waypoint" sites! My look at Maine is because I have a close work friend whose family is a coastal town way up near Canada. Closest airport is Bangor and that's a couple hour drive to his parents' place. I'm shocked with all the "hippies" in that part of the world that there aren't more EV chargers!
Yes, I think we all have our personal, regional needs that we'd like to see met. That's really why I wish these charging providers would take a little more time engaging the community. Has Rivian reached out directly to the community for feedback about charging site locations? If they have, I haven't seen it. I definitely have some suggestions.

Either way, I think the Waypoints are going to be the biggest asset from the Rivian build out, as they represent the most value (both for Rivian and EV owners). As others have noted, the point is to park near where you want to be, and do the rest on bike, boat, foot, etc.

The big gap I see in California that shocks me from Rivian is near the lower Sierra Nevadas. Surely that area has a lot of outdoor enthusiasts? The charging networks all look really sparse for access to King's Canyon and Sequia. Really surprising to not see some RAN sites closer to there.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure, and I love seeing other people's perspectives like yours. Charging is such a region thing as far as the needs and resources go!
I'm not really sure which area of the lower Sierra Nevada you see as a gap. Rivian is actually doubling up on a number of sites along Highway 395, so that area should be really well covered. The Western Sierras are actually well within reach of Highway 99, which is possible the most robust DC fast charging corridor in the world. At this point, there are nearly 100 public charging sites between Bakersfield and Sacramento (less than 300 miles), and many of them are 150+ kW.
 
OP
OP
A

Autolycus

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
221
Reaction score
334
Location
ATL
Vehicles
ICE only :(
Finally, if automating the point names isn't doable, I will probably have to defer to others who are interested in crowdsourcing some of this. In that situation, I can share the map through Google Drive to let others edit. More on that if needed.

This is a great effort, and I'm wondering how you and the community feel about crowdsourcing 'improved' guesses of the locations based upon local knowledge of the proposed sites. For example I'm very familiar with the I-93 corridor from Boston to Canada and suspect Rivian would prefer to utilize the Hooksett rest areas, which are south of the I-89/93 interchange (and have banks of Tesla chargers already) as well as the Franconia Notch parking lot instead of a location in Lincoln, NH (keeping in the sprit of Rivian's desire for chargers in parks 'where you play')

...I'm not certain if this is constructive or not...
Combining a response to this along with another note:

1) Automating naming looks like it might be possible, but it is beyond my current skillset. By the time I figure it out and execute it, I can probably name the things manually! In an hour or a little longer while watching tv I was easily able to manually name ~100 stations based just on the city/town I could see closest to where I had dropped the pin. Once I figured out one simple trick for the process, it wasn't awful.

2) I'm not opposed to the idea of pin locations being tweaked. I think speculation beyond a certain point might be counterproductive though. My assumption is that Rivian dropped their locations onto a specific city/town and MapBox is just putting the location on the map wherever the "center" of that town is. Then of course my pin isn't necessarily dropped in that same spot. But it's hard to know in any event if Rivian just put the closest town in, or if they really do mean to put a station within that town.

I would prefer to keep the number of people who are directly editing the map to a smaller number to just avoid too much chaos and potential for someone accidentally making a major oopsie that's hard to fix. It requires each person be granted privileges to edit the whole map as a document, just like a Doc or Sheet. As best I can tell, Google My Maps doesn't support as much in the way of revision history and protection as Docs or Sheets, unfortunately.
 
OP
OP
A

Autolycus

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
221
Reaction score
334
Location
ATL
Vehicles
ICE only :(
I'm not really sure which area of the lower Sierra Nevada you see as a gap. Rivian is actually doubling up on a number of sites along Highway 395, so that area should be really well covered. The Western Sierras are actually well within reach of Highway 99, which is possible the most robust DC fast charging corridor in the world. At this point, there are nearly 100 public charging sites between Bakersfield and Sacramento (less than 300 miles), and many of them are 150+ kW.
It looked to me like the 99 corridor was a bit of a reach mileage-wise if you wanted to spend much time in the mountains, but I'll fully admit it was just me looking at a map and seeing a lot of ground to cover back and forth from there to King's Canyon or Sequia, and especially if you wanted to do some camping in those areas with driving between. You're right though that there look like a ton of chargers along 99!

I'm with you on the value of the Waypoints. I'd LOVE to see a map of those, but I understand there won't be nearly the same amount of advance planning required for them.
 

SeaGeo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brice
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
654
Reaction score
1,035
Location
Seattle
First Name
Brice
Vehicles
Xc60 T8
Occupation
Engineer
That's really why I wish these charging providers would take a little more time engaging the community. Has Rivian reached out directly to the community for feedback about charging site locations? If they have, I haven't seen it. I definitely have some suggestions.
I've reached out to Rivian and have received so e positive feedback regarding rational and issues they hadn't been able to take into account previously (like going north through Idaho for both travel and wilderness access). Same with not connecting I-29 between Sioux falls and Fargo. That trip likely won't be possible due to the wind that's almost always present there.

One thing that's probably worth considering about the duplication. I suspect Rivian is trying to both fill gaps and provide some minimum QoS both from a vertical integration standpoint as well as supplementing EA and others along main corridors anticipating busy stations as BEV adoption increases.

I actually think there is a good number of areas that they aren't duplicating EA exactly as I mentioned previously. Both branching out completely away from EA (ie north of I90 in eastern WA).

I know you mentioned EA advancing into MT and the Dakota's, but that's not there yet, and isn't in EA's coming soon list. Rivian may be them to those areas. EVGO is so far behind in their installations that they are at risk of a breach of contract with GM. So I have trouble accounting for much of their rollout.

Is it perfect? Definitely not. I've personally identified several tweaks I've suggested here and to Rivian. But I also think it's a pretty good start that serves multiple purposes.
 

SeaGeo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brice
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
654
Reaction score
1,035
Location
Seattle
First Name
Brice
Vehicles
Xc60 T8
Occupation
Engineer
I'm with you on the value of the Waypoints. I'd LOVE to see a map of those, but I understand there won't be nearly the same amount of advance planning required for them.
Same. I suspect they realize that representation of those points isn't particularly valuable unless they're actual point locations (ie trailhead X at Rainier), rather than city level like the RAN DCFC map current is. So I'm not sure how they can provide a roadmap without having a specific locations narrowed down.
 

NewsCoulomb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
California
Vehicles
Bolt EV, Ranger Electric
EVGO is so far behind in their installations that they are at risk of a breach of contract with GM. So I have trouble accounting for much of their rollout.
I wasn't aware that EVgo was behind schedule. At this point, they've already completed nearly 10 sites that I can see, and they are currently constructing several more. Considering construction only started the beginning of this year for a 5-year plan, they seem to be ramping up at a reasonable pace.

It's a bit hard to quickly identify the GM sites on PlugShare because its filter maxes out at 200 kW, and Nissan is also funding several hundred "200 kW" chargers. Regardless, EVgo currently has 45 sites that are 200+ kW, which is significantly more than the half dozen or so they had at the beginning of this year.

What I haven't seen published is exactly which of the ~40 metropolitan areas will be covered by GM's funded chargers, but right now, we can confirm: Atlanta, Daytona (Orlando?), Denver, Irvine, Jacksonville, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, and Seattle.
 

SeaGeo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brice
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
654
Reaction score
1,035
Location
Seattle
First Name
Brice
Vehicles
Xc60 T8
Occupation
Engineer
I wasn't aware that EVgo was behind schedule. At this point, they've already completed nearly 10 sites that I can see, and they are currently constructing several more. Considering construction only started the beginning of this year for a 5-year plan, they seem to be ramping up at a reasonable pace.

It's a bit hard to quickly identify the GM sites on PlugShare because its filter maxes out at 200 kW, and Nissan is also funding several hundred "200 kW" chargers. Regardless, EVgo currently has 45 sites that are 200+ kW, which is significantly more than the half dozen or so they had at the beginning of this year.

What I haven't seen published is exactly which of the ~40 metropolitan areas will be covered by GM's funded chargers, but right now, we can confirm: Atlanta, Daytona (Orlando?), Denver, Irvine, Jacksonville, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, and Seattle.
I bet they'll get there, but their GM timeline is through 2025 or something. So a year or two after Rivian's stated goal. Even if EVGO succeeds. We'll see. Hopefully they do. 🤷‍♂️
 

DuckTruck

Well-Known Member
First Name
Duck
Joined
Dec 23, 2020
Messages
1,048
Reaction score
1,943
Location
PNW
First Name
Duck
Vehicles
Corvair, BMW325, Acura Legend, XC60, '16 Caddy ELR
I'm glad to hear about Wyoming getting some love from EA in the near future. Those are some long distances and a lot of people drive it when connecting Denver, RMNP, and Yellowstone.

Funny enough, I was using Oregon as an example because I've seen a lot of posts from Oregonians wanting stations outside the typical I-5 routes. It looks like the RAN might allow a direct route from Reno to Bend, btw. It looks to me like Klamath Falls is ~253 miles from Reno. I don't know the area at all, but it looks like there might be some smaller towns maybe halfway from Reno to Klamath Falls that would make it a more comfortable gap, but it should be doable in a Rivian -- although maybe not in winter or at 75mph if that's even possible on those roads.

I'm actually in Atlanta and mostly care about the Southern Appalachians. As I noted, there's a big DCFC wasteland north of Atlanta metro. All of the networks have focused on I-85 and I-75 and have completely ignored all of the US Highway routes that most people actually use when heading to the mountains. One of the first things that made me really pay closer attention to Rivian and drew me to this forum was the RAN announcement's focus on the Blue Ridge Parkway and their map having points in areas I frequent.

I've also spent some time in Colorado and appreciate how critical some of those RAN sites will be in that state--and also the "waypoint" sites! My look at Maine is because I have a close work friend whose family is a coastal town way up near Canada. Closest airport is Bangor and that's a couple hour drive to his parents' place. I'm shocked with all the "hippies" in that part of the world that there aren't more EV chargers!

The big gap I see in California that shocks me from Rivian is near the lower Sierra Nevadas. Surely that area has a lot of outdoor enthusiasts? The charging networks all look really sparse for access to King's Canyon and Sequia. Really surprising to not see some RAN sites closer to there.

It's an interesting discussion, for sure, and I love seeing other people's perspectives like yours. Charging is such a region thing as far as the needs and resources go!
From a West Coast/Oregon perspective, the biggest hole on all of these maps is Eastern Oregon. Having stations along U.S. 97 in Central Oregon helps get you close, but Eastern Oregon has nothing and the stations along I-84 won't open that door. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but the center of that no-roll zone is the town of Burns, along U.S. 20. It also serves as a crossroad for a few North-South routes, as well. Without DCFC charging there, no one will feel safe crossing the Eastern half of the state. If they were to try it, they likely could not comfortably explore anything along the way. And Level 2 is not going to suffice.

Testing my range anxiety is not the Adventure of my dreams. I'd love it if Rivian stepped up, but any fast-charging network there would be greatly appreciated. I can't speak for anybody else, but paying a reasonable premium for charging at remote stations of this type would be acceptable to me, if it means chargers will be available in potentially low-use locations. It's this type of hole in the charging maps that my ICE-addicted buddies point to as a reason to ridicule my love of Rivian, and EVs, in general. They were strangely quiet this past weekend when we hit 115⁰ degrees for a few days. I did acknowledge that it was likely just a flukey "once-every-couple-of-thousand-year event" and we were probably just over-due for it. "Couldn't be related to any human activity, right? Just a naturally-occurring freak of nature. Right?" Crickets.....

If you Google Steens Mountain, the Alvord Desert, and the Owyhee River, I think you'll see why I'm so adamant about this. Same is true for Hells Canyon and the Sawtooths in Idaho. All of these locales are amazing places. For Dark Sky camping and stargazing, they're unbelievable!
 

NewsCoulomb

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2021
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
California
Vehicles
Bolt EV, Ranger Electric
I bet they'll get there, but their GM timeline is through 2025 or something. So a year or two after Rivian's stated goal. Even if EVGO succeeds. We'll see. Hopefully they do. 🤷‍♂️
I guess I'm confused. Yes, the 5-year GM timeline is longer than the 3-year Rivian timeline, but EVgo is already an established network. In fact, prior to ChargePoint and Tesla's most recent flurries of activity in building out their chargers, EVgo was the largest charging provider in the United States by site count. So the GM-funded chargers are adding to a well-established network that already featured well over 800 charging sites across the country.

In essence, even if GM-EVgo are only 3/5 of the way finished by the time Rivian completes the first phase of RAN, that would still be at least 400 EVgo sites featuring 350 kW charging in addition to another 900 to 1,000 sites of various speeds versus 600 RAN charging sites. Luckily, because EVgo is building public-access chargers, it's not a competition. We all win.

If we're being honest, there are positives and negatives to both. I have some definite concerns about RAN. Rivian is building their chargers in-house, which is not an easy thing to do. ChargePoints Express 250 chargers were in development for several years. BTC Power, who have been building chargers for a long, long time, had to recently swap out most (I've heard rumors that it was all) the control boards for their high-power chargers. I hope Rivian hits it out of the park on their first try, but be prepared for the possibility that RAN is far from the most reliable network, especially early on.

Likewise, though I'm stoked that GM is funding 2,700 chargers (and unlike Rivian, those Signet chargers are well-established hardware), I still have concerns with that build out. As people have noted, these chargers seem to be clustered around metropolitan areas, which will provide only limited benefits for traveling in an EV. In addition, though these EVgo sites will feature 350 kW chargers, they are only 4-charger sites on average (versus RAN's ~6 chargers per site). Also, the EVgo sites appear to have limited support for EVs towing trailers, while Rivian has stated that their goal is to emphasize pull-through parking at as many of their charging sites as can support it.

Basically, these are all just options, and as EV owners, we should be focusing on ensuring that our needs are met rather than cheerleading one charging provider over another.
 

SeaGeo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brice
Joined
Jan 12, 2021
Messages
654
Reaction score
1,035
Location
Seattle
First Name
Brice
Vehicles
Xc60 T8
Occupation
Engineer
I guess I'm confused. Yes, the 5-year GM timeline is longer than the 3-year Rivian timeline, but EVgo is already an established network. In fact, prior to ChargePoint and Tesla's most recent flurries of activity in building out their chargers, EVgo was the largest charging provider in the United States by site count. So the GM-funded chargers are adding to a well-established network that already featured well over 800 charging sites across the country.

In essence, even if GM-EVgo are only 3/5 of the way finished by the time Rivian completes the first phase of RAN, that would still be at least 400 EVgo sites featuring 350 kW charging in addition to another 900 to 1,000 sites of various speeds versus 600 RAN charging sites. Luckily, because EVgo is building public-access chargers, it's not a competition. We all win.
I would argue the EVGO is an established... Intracity network with extremely limited high powered DCFC charging currently. Their website doesn't delineate between 50 and 120+ kw chargers, so defaulting to plugshare (because I got impatient manuals filtering EVGO's site) there's currently 120+kw chargers in like 7 States, and 4 or 5 of them seem to only have 2 or 3 stations. Filtering by 70+ doesn't help their numbers much.

The GM deal is for ~2750 chargers, with 80% by the end of 2023. From the PR release I've seen, those chargers will still range between 100 and 350 kw (that very wall may be wrong).

So, the GM rollout with EVGO is smaller than Rivian's rollout in the same timeframe (Ircisn with 3500+ vs 80% of 2750). Point being, if I'm Rivian, I would be very hesitant to count on *future* sites that are planned by other networks to the extent that I would avoid placing a charger at a location of value. Which I think is why it seems to be spread out a bit more where EA stations are along major interstates, but has consistent spacing through MT, ND, SD, and MN where EA isn't currently (though recently announced).

I personally think much of the DCFC RAN is intended to provide some access quality of service with concern for overall capacity along major routes (hence they've closed it to just Rivian at the moment). If that's the case, any of those QoS based sites shouldn't be relocated simply because EVGO *may* show up there in 2022. Admittedly a decent chunk of their locations are along major highways for that reason, but to me that's a surprisingly big selling point seeing EA stations starting to fill up in my neck of the woods. No joke there were three ID.4s at the same station I visited the other day.

TBH I may be unintentionally arguing against point I thought you were making and may not have been (basically that RAN placement should work around EVGO 100+ kw locations).
 

Advertisement





 


Advertisement
Top