R1T versus F150 Hybrid/Electric...

[Ssaygmo]

I guess it depends on you version of "offroad capable". The Mitsubishi Outlander and RAV4 Prime would qualify for many.

Unfortunately, the Pacifica Hybrid has been plagued by problems with the PHEV portion of the drivetrain and faced several recalls. Production has been halted at least twice to correct ongoing issues, with limited success.
The other knock on the Chrysler offering is that it offers zero user control over EV vs ICE use. There is no way to select to drive it only on EV before the gas kicks in. Probably a marketing decision based on their target customer, but still a complaint of many owners.

Well thats the point- Its not a new powertrain now, its already been vetted for several years and hopefully had its issues worked out. In the 4xe, it will have 3 drive modes- hybrid, electric save, and fully electric. So apparently they are learning from the mistakes, and they know that jeep owners are more particular about controlling things vs minivan drivers just wanting to get in and drive without thinking about anything.

The rav4 prime is gravel road capable, not off-road capable. The rear electric drive motors are absolutely gutless in the videos I have watched with people pushing them, similar to the Prius where they added awd to it but rear motor makes 7hp. Might as well get out and push.

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[DucRider]

Well thats the point- Its not a new powertrain now, its already been vetted for several years and hopefully had its issues worked out.

Hopefully. They haven't had a recall since June.

Plus, the Pacifica has a single 120 HP electric motor on a FWD vehicle and is a completely different powertrain than what has been announced for the Jeep.

The rav4 prime is gravel road capable, not off-road capable. The rear electric drive motors are absolutely gutless in the videos I have watched with people pushing them, similar to the Prius where they added awd to it but rear motor makes 7hp. Might as well get out and push.

The electric motors in the RAV4 Prime are 40 and 134 kW (55 and 180 HP). The Jeep will have 44 and 134 HP motors.

 

[JeremyMKE]

This article keeps coming up, and it has been discredited in many ways.
Short answer is they compared an A class diesel with a full sized BEV sedan. And they only counted the tailpipe emissions from the diesel with none of the "well to pump" emissions. They did, of course, look at the upstream emissions of creating electricity, but used very old data - the grid is much cleaner now and that trend is continuing.
If this kind of "study" interests you, I can point you to a bunch of info that proves the Earth is flat and the moon landings were fake.

I also factor in that I am buying in early to a new infrastructure. The efficiency comes at scale. I am super worried about the toxicity of batteries but am optimistic that can be reduced. We have made progress on Fossil fuel efficiency and reducing emissions but as of now that is a more linear improvement. Battery and EV is hopefully a non linear progression.

I was hoping Hydrogen would be further along. I really thought that was the better tech, and it still could be a big part of the EV market.

I am buying in for all the fun with EVs, I am willing to pay the price of range and availability of "fueling" infrastructure as it stands today. I want to spend my dollars toward a new option and not just sit on the sidelines until I don't have to make any sacrifices.

Its super easy to sit on the sidelines and poke holes, I am going to give it a go and see what happens. That is a moral investment and not a personal financial I admit. It makes me happy to in however small a way to contribute to change.

 

[n8dgr8]

Considering:
R1T: With poor charging infrastructure, Max pack is a must have. Will likely need to rent vehicles for longer road trips. Should be a blast as a daily driver and easy to park in Seattle. Great for trips within 150 miles of our house. So many unknowns with a new car at a new car company. Our Tesla is OK for reliability, heard horror stories from very early Model S owners. Will need a test drive before delivery to make sure the ride is smooth. Rented a tacoma once, ride was way too rough.

F-150 Hybrid: Cons: Boring. No chance it is going to fit in the garage. Getting gas every week is annoying. Probably will sit in the driveway as the spare car. Pros: Tons of interior space for a family of 4. Back seat is bigger than our living room. Can put ski boots on without opening the doors. No need to rent car for long remote road trips. I think it will be less of a hassle to service than the R1T. Less conspicuous.

Considered:
Cybertruck - rejected by family as too ugly. Giving up Supercharging is a big deal though.

F-150 electric - Based on the Mach-e, likely won't have enough range without a reliable charging network.

Currently have: Tesla Model S (200 mile range), Volvo XC90

 

[Trandall]

I WISH I was looking forward to the new f150 hybrid. However... its got a Prius sized battery. I'd expect at best half a mile at walking speed before the ice would kick on.

In my mind its an absolute joke, compared to what it could have been. It needed to have a 10-20kwh pack, like the new jeep 4xe system (a vehicle which makes me question the Rivian, because the 4xe would give me 100% electric daily driving with its 18kwh battery, but then I could go run some off-road trails or visit my folks 700 miles away without a worry about charging stations.

There is a vacuum of phev trucks/offroad capable suv's. Not a single one exists. Chevy could have put the volt system into the Colorado. Ford could have engineered their phev architecture into the f150 with a useful battery size. I really hope the 4xe jeeps are reliable (the same system has been in the Chrysler pacifica for awhile now) and sell like hotcakes, and if they put it into the gladiator it will be not only the cost capable off-road truck but also the only PHEV truck in the world.

I'm already researching gas generators for the Rivian, as a backup. 100lbs of generator+100lbs of gas would add another 100-200 miles of range, for emergency purposes.

Lugging a generator and fuel around in a BEV is not realistic solution, especially 100punds of fuel. Why would you carry all that weight just to sit for hours charging at 8mi./hr, best case or possible 2-4mi/hr. in cold weather. You would just re-route to a charging station or if needed find an available 120v receptacle at a rest stop or a store and plug in the included level 1 charger.

 

[Kickaha]

Just some personal observations from my experience that may (or may not) help you.

I used to drive an F-150 and I love the ride height and road feel. It was my daily driver and used the bed for large loads occasionally.

My 2016 Tesla Model X is first EV and I will never go back to ICE. One of the reasons I am buying a Rivian R1S is that the Model X is not an SUV even though its billed as one - I want a better ride height and more advanced tech. At 5 years old, my Model X is showing its age a little. Nothing wrong mechanically or electrically and service has been a dream. I am saving probably $300 in gas expense and spending an extra $30 per month in higher electric due to driving an EV.

I think this all comes down to uncertainty of the unknown. You know what an F-150 is like and you dont know what a R1T is like. This is completely understandable. My advice is to go test drive a Tesla Model X. Yes, the vehicle and ride height will be different but the driving experience will be similiar. You cannot compare a hybrid to a pure EV. The driving experience for me is what sealed the deal, despite the difference in vehicle types.

Range anxiety is real but managable. I have had my Tesla for 5 years and never once run out of charge but I watch it pretty close. At least for me, range anxiety makes me tend to lean toward the maximum range regardless of any other feature. High range cannot be discounted (and I was pretty pissed when the Max pack was dropped from the R1S) but given my usage, I decided that 300+ was "good enough" for now. I know that battery tech will do nothing but improve. I have a max range of 200 miles now and its fine - my wife and I dont take long road trips - so 300+ is okay. I would prefer 400, obviously, but I am not willing to wait for the next generation EV to get it. I could wait for Rivian to get there or Lucid Gravity but I am sticking with my 2021 Rivian.

Lots of Rivian features have changed from the pre-market hype - this will also happen to the F-150. As products go through the development process and risks and schedule delays crop up, the project team will drop features to either reduce risk or hit a launch date. This always happens so I would not make your mind up based on this.

There will always be a new shiney object on the horizon you may be tempted want to wait for. Thats up to you. Will you be happy with a "large mid-size pickup" or unhappy if you don't get a "full-size" pickup? That is personal preference. How many times per year will a shorter bed really impact you that cant be solved by lowering the tailgate and using tie-down straps or cargo nets?

Anyway, hope that helps with your analysis.

Cheers!

 

[Frank Rast]

Where do you think your electricity comes from? Answer: About 63% from fossil fuels. And, when you convert fossil fuels to electricity, you lose over 10% of the energy in transmission. Furthermore, battery factories are the most toxic plants (read that as most environmentally unfriendly) on earth. Autoweek had an article that stated: "Industry watchers now fear that battery production, unless it changes dramatically, along with electricity production will actually produce more atmospheric pollutants than the most efficient gas and diesel engines do at the moment. ...early studies of lithium-ion EV battery production are far from encouraging: Researchers are finding that battery production for electric cars ultimately produces more carbon dioxide -- up to 74 percent more -- than an efficient conventional car if those batteries are produced in a factory powered by fossil fuels, Bloomberg reports. As battery production scales up, so will emissions from factories producing the batteries in the first place, factories that themselves are relying on less-than-clean energy to churn out the batteries." This doesn't even broach the subject of battery disposal. So, if it makes you feel better about the environment to buy an EV, disregard the facts and go ahead. EVs very likely hurt the environment more than gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles.

I disagree, centralized power generation using lower carbon fossil fuels for EV's is far more efficient than individual ICES using petroleum. You seem to forget that these carbon based fuels are not renewable.

 

[Ssaygmo]

Lugging a generator and fuel around in a BEV is not realistic solution, especially 100punds of fuel. Why would you carry all that weight just to sit for hours charging at 8mi./hr, best case or possible 2-4mi/hr. in cold weather. You would just re-route to a charging station or if needed find an available 120v receptacle at a rest stop or a store and plug in the included level 1 charger.

While we still have inadequate charging infrasturcture and slow charging speeds (relatively to Dino juice), the same could also be said for BEV when taking a 1000+ mile road trip. On a long trip a HUGE battery is a plus but you're still at the mercy of fast chargers, and on a daily basis you are lugging around a huge amount of extra battery weight you don't need. I have owned 3 chevy volts, a Prius, a model x, and an f150, so I have experience with all of the above. I do a 2000 mile round trip drive from norcal to Arizona a couple times per year, driving the trip in an ice or phev is dead simple, the same trip in an ev is a major pain, several hours of extra waiting to charge each direction, and thats with the Tesla where you don't have to worry so much about the lack of charging infrastructure.

That is why I'm still keeping my cybertruck trip motor reservation (500 miles of range) and actively considering the 4xe jeep to hold me over for the next leapthrough in battery/ev tech (solid state/much higher power density batteries).

 

[gombater]

appreciate the latest comments on this thread - all good points. It's interesting some of the items that drive people's decisions - like not having room in the garage. While it seems minor, that is a major convenience issue. For me, I have a F150 that fits so no problem fitting another one.
While I do not use the features of a 1/2 ton truck every day, I have loaded it up, both bed and pulling 8k lbs and it's really nice just loading up and go. The comments above out planning trips I do have concerns over. If the rated range is 300 miles for the LE, what will the 'real world' be, both summer and winter? 250? any insight from current EV owners?
ultimately, I am waiting for info on a test drive, which quite frankly will need to be pretty soon before I make a final decision. Can the perceived improvements/cost savings outweigh perceived range anxiety/time/functionality [small bed]. Only an in person test drive will help clarify that.

 

[C.R. Rivian]

appreciate the latest comments on this thread - all good points. It's interesting some of the items that drive people's decisions - like not having room in the garage. While it seems minor, that is a major convenience issue. For me, I have a F150 that fits so no problem fitting another one.
While I do not use the features of a 1/2 ton truck every day, I have loaded it up, both bed and pulling 8k lbs and it's really nice just loading up and go. The comments above out planning trips I do have concerns over. If the rated range is 300 miles for the LE, what will the 'real world' be, both summer and winter? 250? any insight from current EV owners?
ultimately, I am waiting for info on a test drive, which quite frankly will need to be pretty soon before I make a final decision. Can the perceived improvements/cost savings outweigh perceived range anxiety/time/functionality [small bed]. Only an in person test drive will help clarify that.

My Niro EV sometimes exceeds the rated range.

 

[n8dgr8]

appreciate the latest comments on this thread - all good points. It's interesting some of the items that drive people's decisions - like not having room in the garage. While it seems minor, that is a major convenience issue. For me, I have a F150 that fits so no problem fitting another one.
While I do not use the features of a 1/2 ton truck every day, I have loaded it up, both bed and pulling 8k lbs and it's really nice just loading up and go. The comments above out planning trips I do have concerns over. If the rated range is 300 miles for the LE, what will the 'real world' be, both summer and winter? 250? any insight from current EV owners?
ultimately, I am waiting for info on a test drive, which quite frankly will need to be pretty soon before I make a final decision. Can the perceived improvements/cost savings outweigh perceived range anxiety/time/functionality [small bed]. Only an in person test drive will help clarify that.

Our Tesla has a range of 200 miles. The best we have ever done at highway speeds is 150 miles with 8% capacity to spare. Cold weather, rain, and wind can consume another 20% compared to a nice warm sunny day. With a charging network of TBD, I'm going for the 400 mile range and planning to only charge at my destination. If we need to go on a longer road trip, we have great rental rates through work. Tesla has the best charing network out there and even that has some issues. We have encountered capacity issues, power outages, and failed hardware on our car.

 

[DucRider]

It will be interesting to see how the SKI ban affect the F-150 timeline.
Short version- SKI was found guilty of stealing info/tech/secrets from LG ad is facing a 10 year ban on US EV battery sales. A 4 year exemption was allowed to supply the F-150, and a 2 year exemption for the ID.4. However, SK is not thrilled about building battery plants, running them for a few years then mothballing them.

“SK Innovation will immediately enter into discussions with our customers, Ford Motor Company and Volkswagen, as a result of the ITC's decision. We have serious concerns about the commercial and operational implications of this decision for the future of our EV-battery facility in Commerce, Georgia, which is expected to employ 2,600 people when soon completed. We also believe that the ITC ruling could have a serious adverse impact on President Biden's policies to combat climate change and expand the electrification of the US auto fleet in coming years. We look forward to having detailed discussions with Biden administration officials charged with reviewing the ITC's ruling and carrying out the President's policies related to electric vehicles and the environment.”​

https://insideevs.com/news/487231/sk-innovation-batteries-banned-10-years-us/

 

[skyote]

It will be interesting to see how the SKI ban affect the F-150 timeline.
Short version- SKI was found guilty of stealing info/tech/secrets from LG ad is facing a 10 year ban on US EV battery sales. A 4 year exemption was allowed to supply the F-150, and a 2 year exemption for the ID.4. However, SK is not thrilled about building battery plants, running them for a few years then mothballing them.

“SK Innovation will immediately enter into discussions with our customers, Ford Motor Company and Volkswagen, as a result of the ITC's decision. We have serious concerns about the commercial and operational implications of this decision for the future of our EV-battery facility in Commerce, Georgia, which is expected to employ 2,600 people when soon completed. We also believe that the ITC ruling could have a serious adverse impact on President Biden's policies to combat climate change and expand the electrification of the US auto fleet in coming years. We look forward to having detailed discussions with Biden administration officials charged with reviewing the ITC's ruling and carrying out the President's policies related to electric vehicles and the environment.”​

https://insideevs.com/news/487231/sk-innovation-batteries-banned-10-years-us/

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see LG swoop in to take advantage of the incentives & put their own facility in Commerce, GA.

 

[RivianXpress]

Speaking of ‘real world’ range.

https://apple.news/AjlDep084QxiYMnU2Tz3Qnw

Hopefully Rivian is on the high side if 300 and not ‘Tesla like’.

 

[DuckTruck]

I appreciate this pros and cons discussion. I did my configuration and will wait for the larger battery/longer range. But it never hurts to do my due diligence and re-examine my options. I just did a 900 mile hunting trip into central Montana from my home in NW MT and never passed a fast charging station or saw one on my multiple apps. I’m aware of 5 fast charging stations coming in the next 12-18 mos. in Montana but only one would have helped on my recent trip. Thus.....I’m intrigued about a hybrid truck now and waiting till the next generation of full EV and hopefully a better infrastructure for fast charging in rural areas. Sigh....I too regret seeing some of the features dropped that I looked forward to, e.g. 180 degree tailgate. But am still keeping my R1T reservation until I get more info........

I'd appreciate any material you can share regarding new charging stations coming to MT. The whole of the Intermountain West is short on DCFC and easily accessed Level 2 chargers.

Thanks!

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