R1T versus F150 Hybrid/Electric...

[gombater]

Hello all!
Love this forum and all the great info shared. Been thinking harder about why I want a Rivian R1T versus a standard traditional truck. For comparisons, I am using a currently available F150 Hybrid and potential future F150 Electric. I wanted to list some pros/cons below and would appreciate other's input on them. A few qualifiers first:

• I am a current F150 platinum owner and never owned an electric vehicle
• I classify as a weekend warrior - which means my current truck is a daily driver but used as a truck on many weekends, including towing on occasion
• I am trying to decide between going with my LE R1T reservation or back out, buy a F150 hybrid now then look at current 2nd gen truck EV options in 2 or 3 years.
• CT off the table as its Fugly, Hummer EV cause it's overkill for my needs [plus color/cost]
• Live in midwest where winters can be significant factors - cold/ice/snow/etc...
• While the 'cool' factor is huge, let's be honest its' been over 2 years since reservation and so far there has only been deletions of tech/options not additions. My practical side is now taking over and asking 'what do you really need?'

Pros for R1T:

• new tech/unique vehicle/cool factor
• covered storage - frunk and gear tunnel... hope we can buy the base rails/track for kitchen to build custom applications like a gun rack...
• quiet factor/off road capability
• built in bed cover
• availability June/July 2021 [reservation #1196...]
• minimal maintenance
• no need for cold weather fill ups in winter under daily drive conditions - charge from home
• built in air compressor
• live 30 min from factory... can pick up direct... also less worries about repairs/parts with factory so close...
• Alexa integration?
• smaller than 1/2 ton but larger than colorado/ranger means slightly easier parking due to size

Pros for F150:

• hybrid available now
• 6' bed with easy access
• 30 amp 240 volt power in bed [search TFL on youtube to see the new 2021 F150 hybrid power 2 RV trailers at the same time.... anther video shows it charging a BMW electric vehicle]
• 700 mile range/fast fill ups
• getting a lot of good press online

Cons for R1T:

• too short bed
• basic endgate now - no 180 folding or easy access method
• no power folding access steps
• window only option for roof - I never use these as sun gets between my eyes and glasses causing massive glare - always use screen/covering on glass roofs - having to do a cheap workaround does not seem right for a proposed luxury/lifestyle vehicle
• autonomous features 'cool' but in practicality will rarely use them - roads where I live not designated for usage and in winter conditions I would expect sensors to be inactive due to ice/snow [like it happens on my truck today] - while very nice tech, when would I use them? Also not sure I trust them. My employer sells fully autonomous vehicles and they work very well in controlled environments when all other vehicles are also autonomous. What happens in an uncontrolled environment when a human makes an error? how does the autonomous respond? In the tech I have today [albeit a few years old] I can react much faster than the truck sensors...
• range - I get nervous when my existing truck gets down to half...
• to date have not seen or driven in person - very important factor
• no carplay?

Cons for F150 Hybrid/electric:

• late to the game - when will electric F150 go on sale? 2022 or later?
• unknown specs for future F150 EV
• More maintenance/higher cost [hybrid]
• higher fuel costs [hybrid]

What have I missed on this list? Would be awesome to hear from the form their additions/changes to this list!

Sponsored

 

[C.R. Rivian]

The R1T will be my 2nd EV (2019 Kia Niro EV). I have owned F150 and Honda Ridgeline in the past (just 'sold' the Ridgeline to one of the boys). Long-term, EV's do save $ on routine maintenance (hardly any) and the convenience of at-night charging means more than you initially might think as does the quiet. The instant acceleration is nice, too. A downside for the R1T: a bed extender would be nice and has not been announced as of yet. Was useful in the Ridgeline from time to time. Bigger concern: initial hiccups in new EV's. My Niro has one that the local service guys are trying to figure out. My example, the coolant for the battery (that's the gas tank, so to speak) has gone down just below minimum on a couple occasions. This is not supposed to happen...closed system and all. Also, coolant not user replaceable. Kia has been a good resource for them and the 10 year warranty is comforting. On Monday, they'll tell me if they've figured it out. Make sure (factory close or no) that there is a service department available if something comes up that isn't a software fix.

 

[Blur1t]

Hello all!
Love this forum and all the great info shared. Been thinking harder about why I want a Rivian R1T versus a standard traditional truck. For comparisons, I am using a currently available F150 Hybrid and potential future F150 Electric. I wanted to list some pros/cons below and would appreciate other's input on them. A few qualifiers first:

• I am a current F150 platinum owner and never owned an electric vehicle
• I classify as a weekend warrior - which means my current truck is a daily driver but used as a truck on many weekends, including towing on occasion
• I am trying to decide between going with my LE R1T reservation or back out, buy a F150 hybrid now then look at current 2nd gen truck EV options in 2 or 3 years.
• CT off the table as its Fugly, Hummer EV cause it's overkill for my needs [plus color/cost]
• Live in midwest where winters can be significant factors - cold/ice/snow/etc...
• While the 'cool' factor is huge, let's be honest its' been over 2 years since reservation and so far there has only been deletions of tech/options not additions. My practical side is now taking over and asking 'what do you really need?'

Pros for R1T:

• new tech/unique vehicle/cool factor
• covered storage - frunk and gear tunnel... hope we can buy the base rails/track for kitchen to build custom applications like a gun rack...
• quiet factor/off road capability
• built in bed cover
• availability June/July 2021 [reservation #1196...]
• minimal maintenance
• no need for cold weather fill ups in winter under daily drive conditions - charge from home
• built in air compressor
• live 30 min from factory... can pick up direct... also less worries about repairs/parts with factory so close...
• Alexa integration?
• smaller than 1/2 ton but larger than colorado/ranger means slightly easier parking due to size

Pros for F150:

• hybrid available now
• 6' bed with easy access
• 30 amp 240 volt power in bed [search TFL on youtube to see the new 2021 F150 hybrid power 2 RV trailers at the same time.... anther video shows it charging a BMW electric vehicle]
• 700 mile range/fast fill ups
• getting a lot of good press online

Cons for R1T:

• too short bed
• basic endgate now - no 180 folding or easy access method
• no power folding access steps
• window only option for roof - I never use these as sun gets between my eyes and glasses causing massive glare - always use screen/covering on glass roofs - having to do a cheap workaround does not seem right for a proposed luxury/lifestyle vehicle
• autonomous features 'cool' but in practicality will rarely use them - roads where I live not designated for usage and in winter conditions I would expect sensors to be inactive due to ice/snow [like it happens on my truck today] - while very nice tech, when would I use them? Also not sure I trust them. My employer sells fully autonomous vehicles and they work very well in controlled environments when all other vehicles are also autonomous. What happens in an uncontrolled environment when a human makes an error? how does the autonomous respond? In the tech I have today [albeit a few years old] I can react much faster than the truck sensors...
• range - I get nervous when my existing truck gets down to half...
• to date have not seen or driven in person - very important factor
• no carplay?

Cons for F150 Hybrid/electric:

• late to the game - when will electric F150 go on sale? 2022 or later?
• unknown specs for future F150 EV
• More maintenance/higher cost [hybrid]
• higher fuel costs [hybrid]

What have I missed on this list? Would be awesome to hear from the form their additions/changes to this list!

I’m thinking along those lines too. I currently drive an F150. I like the room but rarely do workloads in bed to worry that much about the length difference, I’m a weekend warrior and rarely do much 4wd too. Just Some mud puddles and snow piles seasonally. I think just the environmental factors the EV is providing are just so forward thinking. I hate relying on the fossil fuels, I love nature and think it’s time I started give back to nature. I have juggled with the hybrid options too but as a former Honda mechanic, I think your losing the better parts of the ev by still having all of the Parts of the ICE vehicles in addition to the EV side to service and maintain. A lot more moving parts than either equals more to go wrong. True it’s a step in the right direction but just not cost friendly. The full F150 ev is still just a dream and Frankly I just don’t trust Ford to create that vehicle yet. I’m not convinced they are at that level to bring that type of vehicle to the masses yet. Tesla CT is of course absolutely fugly like you said and there really isn’t anything else out there yet.
This of course is all just my humble opinion and so this is how I have convinced myself R1T is the answer. My pockets aren’t big enough for the Hummer, and it’s just too much in more ways than one. That crab crawl does gives me a chuckle though!
Right now I got the specialty plates announcing my R1T,I’m not turning back now ..

 

[MReda]

I could nitpick your list. To be honest, I think some of it is a stretch. I've never test driven a vehicle 6 months in advance, and all of my vehicles have had features I haven't used. Can those really be considered cons? On the opposite side, do you really think being close to the factory will give you direct access to parts? If that actually matters, I would call it a con instead of a pro because it implies being more than 30 minutes from the factory means parts availability will be an issue.

The reason I point that out is because sometimes creating a list with minor details might make it difficult to focus on the important things.

• I classify as a weekend warrior - which means my current truck is a daily driver but used as a truck on many weekends, including towing on occasion

Pros for F150:

• 700 mile range/fast fill ups

Cons for R1T:

• range - I get nervous when my existing truck gets down to half...

Seems like you're going to be looking for a place to charge every 100 miles if you don't like running a tank down below half. Maybe less if you're towing. At a minimum, I would say you seem like someone who should wait for the max pack, but the reality is, with range where it is, and charging infrastructure the way it is, an electric vehicle isn't for everyone and every use case.

 

[MTrivianR1T]

I appreciate this pros and cons discussion. I did my configuration and will wait for the larger battery/longer range. But it never hurts to do my due diligence and re-examine my options. I just did a 900 mile hunting trip into central Montana from my home in NW MT and never passed a fast charging station or saw one on my multiple apps. I’m aware of 5 fast charging stations coming in the next 12-18 mos. in Montana but only one would have helped on my recent trip. Thus.....I’m intrigued about a hybrid truck now and waiting till the next generation of full EV and hopefully a better infrastructure for fast charging in rural areas. Sigh....I too regret seeing some of the features dropped that I looked forward to, e.g. 180 degree tailgate. But am still keeping my R1T reservation until I get more info........

 

[C.R. Rivian]

Yeah, on the West Coast where I would be traveling, there are lots of charging stations. Having looked at charger maps, going off into the rural mountain states would be challenging.

 

[UP Finn]

You've listed some very good points! I too am intrigued by the F-150 Hybrid. There are going to be different pros and cons for all of us. I agree with a lot of what you're thinking. I bought my first EV 4 months ago. I wanted something unique. And fast. I'm glad it's a "clean" vehicle but that isn't in my top 10 reasons for buying an EV. My Model Y performance seems a bit slower than the Jeep Trackhawk I sold.

The good: I leave my house every morning with about 260 miles of range. It's a sleeper car, faster than it looks. It's quiet. I've gotten used to not going to the gas station at least once a week. My utility bill hasn't changed (I went from a flat $0.14+/-/kwh (all day) to $0.21+/-/kwh from 0700 to 2100 and $0.06+/-/kwh from 2100 to 0700). My insurance costs went down. I can precondition the interior from my phone. The full self driving is really cool. Even if it's not really full self driving. You have to nudge the wheel about every 1/2 mile on the freeway.

The bad: It's almost too quiet. It cost me $1,200.00 to have a licensed electrician install my home charger. On my first road trip I was puckered up pretty tight realizing that driving with traffic (80-85) in Chicago with the a/c on reduces your range by a 1/3. Thankfully there're quite a few superchargers in the Chicago area and Tesla's navigation was a good nanny. Charging at a supercharging station isn't the same time as filling up at a gas station. If there's more than just you there, the charging rates are reduced. Sometimes by a lot. I've waited an hour charging 200 miles. Twice I've had a computer glitch that locks up my car. Have to restart it like a computer. Not fun when I'm in a hurry.

Overall I'm happy with my purchase. And am eager to see how the Rivian turns out. I also have a deposit down on the Cybertruck. I don't think it's totally fugly. And it's definitely unique. I'm curious to see the specs on the electric F-150 too.

 

[gombater]

Lots of good input - great reason to be on the forum. I will like others here, wait to make a decision until such a point I have to place a firm order or get to see/look/feel/test drive a pre-production unit.
Some folks have no issue making such a purchase sight unseen. While I recognize the environmental/tech/'new' factors, There's also a level of practicality [ie use case] that applies - can the R1T replace an ICE truck - yes, but what are you giving up [if anything] and how important is that to you? Will also be paying more attention to charging infrastructure and the point about having to finding a L2 charger on your route, plus hope that it works and there isn't other vehicles charging at the same time seems to imply a level of risk or require additional flexibility be added to you planning that an ICE vehicle does not need. We all need to find the line on how flexible we are willing to be to drive an EV truck, and a lot of that will depend on what you use it for and where you are located.

 

[LAVol1]

I hate relying on the fossil fuels, I love nature and think it’s time I started give back to nature.

Where do you think your electricity comes from? Answer: About 63% from fossil fuels. And, when you convert fossil fuels to electricity, you lose over 10% of the energy in transmission. Furthermore, battery factories are the most toxic plants (read that as most environmentally unfriendly) on earth. Autoweek had an article that stated: "Industry watchers now fear that battery production, unless it changes dramatically, along with electricity production will actually produce more atmospheric pollutants than the most efficient gas and diesel engines do at the moment. ...early studies of lithium-ion EV battery production are far from encouraging: Researchers are finding that battery production for electric cars ultimately produces more carbon dioxide -- up to 74 percent more -- than an efficient conventional car if those batteries are produced in a factory powered by fossil fuels, Bloomberg reports. As battery production scales up, so will emissions from factories producing the batteries in the first place, factories that themselves are relying on less-than-clean energy to churn out the batteries." This doesn't even broach the subject of battery disposal. So, if it makes you feel better about the environment to buy an EV, disregard the facts and go ahead. EVs very likely hurt the environment more than gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles.

 

[DucRider]

Lots of good input - great reason to be on the forum. I will like others here, wait to make a decision until such a point I have to place a firm order or get to see/look/feel/test drive a pre-production unit.
Some folks have no issue making such a purchase sight unseen. While I recognize the environmental/tech/'new' factors, There's also a level of practicality [ie use case] that applies - can the R1T replace an ICE truck - yes, but what are you giving up [if anything] and how important is that to you? Will also be paying more attention to charging infrastructure and the point about having to finding a L2 charger on your route, plus hope that it works and there isn't other vehicles charging at the same time seems to imply a level of risk or require additional flexibility be added to you planning that an ICE vehicle does not need. We all need to find the line on how flexible we are willing to be to drive an EV truck, and a lot of that will depend on what you use it for and where you are located.

Depends a lot on your perspective. I cringe at everything I would have to give up to go the ICE route

 

[jjwolf120]

Where do you think your electricity comes from? Answer: About 63% from fossil fuels. And, when you convert fossil fuels to electricity, you lose over 10% of the energy in transmission. Furthermore, battery factories are the most toxic plants (read that as most environmentally unfriendly) on earth. Autoweek had an article that stated: "Industry watchers now fear that battery production, unless it changes dramatically, along with electricity production will actually produce more atmospheric pollutants than the most efficient gas and diesel engines do at the moment. ...early studies of lithium-ion EV battery production are far from encouraging: Researchers are finding that battery production for electric cars ultimately produces more carbon dioxide -- up to 74 percent more -- than an efficient conventional car if those batteries are produced in a factory powered by fossil fuels, Bloomberg reports. As battery production scales up, so will emissions from factories producing the batteries in the first place, factories that themselves are relying on less-than-clean energy to churn out the batteries." This doesn't even broach the subject of battery disposal. So, if it makes you feel better about the environment to buy an EV, disregard the facts and go ahead. EVs very likely hurt the environment more than gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles.

The above is mostly FUD.
1. When you compare BEVs to ICE you need to compare all energy use for both production and use of the vehicles, which does include the generation of electricity, but also includes drilling for oil, refining the oil, shipping the oil, transporting the refined gasoline to gasoline stations. (note that ICE engines are about 25 to 35% efficient)
2. While you does lose some energy in transporting electricity, you also more energy in transporting oil in it various forms around the world.
3. While it is true that it takes more energy to produce a BEV than an ICE car, once the car is produced, its carbon foot is much less (regardless of the how the energy is produced, although the cleaner the energy the greater the difference.)

https://www.electrive.com/2020/08/3...tric-cars-cause-less-co2-emissions-than-ices/

 

[timesinks]

3. While it is true that it takes more energy to produce a BEV than an ICE car, once the car is produced, its carbon foot is much less (regardless of the how the energy is produced, although the cleaner the energy the greater the difference.)

And, because of this, pretty much every vehicle will cross the break-even point eventually and become cleaner than the ICE vehicle. The better your local utility sources are, the faster you'll pass that point (we burn very little fossil fuel to generate electricity here in the Pacific Northwest). The added benefit of an EV is that as your local grid stops buying coal and deploys more renewables, your net emissions for driving decrease. ICE vehicles can't pull off a trick like that...

 

[DucRider]

Where do you think your electricity comes from? Answer: About 63% from fossil fuels. And, when you convert fossil fuels to electricity, you lose over 10% of the energy in transmission. Furthermore, battery factories are the most toxic plants (read that as most environmentally unfriendly) on earth. Autoweek had an article that stated: "Industry watchers now fear that battery production, unless it changes dramatically, along with electricity production will actually produce more atmospheric pollutants than the most efficient gas and diesel engines do at the moment. ...early studies of lithium-ion EV battery production are far from encouraging: Researchers are finding that battery production for electric cars ultimately produces more carbon dioxide -- up to 74 percent more -- than an efficient conventional car if those batteries are produced in a factory powered by fossil fuels, Bloomberg reports. As battery production scales up, so will emissions from factories producing the batteries in the first place, factories that themselves are relying on less-than-clean energy to churn out the batteries." This doesn't even broach the subject of battery disposal. So, if it makes you feel better about the environment to buy an EV, disregard the facts and go ahead. EVs very likely hurt the environment more than gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles.

This article keeps coming up, and it has been discredited in many ways.
Short answer is they compared an A class diesel with a full sized BEV sedan. And they only counted the tailpipe emissions from the diesel with none of the "well to pump" emissions. They did, of course, look at the upstream emissions of creating electricity, but used very old data - the grid is much cleaner now and that trend is continuing.
If this kind of "study" interests you, I can point you to a bunch of info that proves the Earth is flat and the moon landings were fake.

 

[Ssaygmo]

I WISH I was looking forward to the new f150 hybrid. However... its got a Prius sized battery. I'd expect at best half a mile at walking speed before the ice would kick on.

In my mind its an absolute joke, compared to what it could have been. It needed to have a 10-20kwh pack, like the new jeep 4xe system (a vehicle which makes me question the Rivian, because the 4xe would give me 100% electric daily driving with its 18kwh battery, but then I could go run some off-road trails or visit my folks 700 miles away without a worry about charging stations.

There is a vacuum of phev trucks/offroad capable suv's. Not a single one exists. Chevy could have put the volt system into the Colorado. Ford could have engineered their phev architecture into the f150 with a useful battery size. I really hope the 4xe jeeps are reliable (the same system has been in the Chrysler pacifica for awhile now) and sell like hotcakes, and if they put it into the gladiator it will be not only the cost capable off-road truck but also the only PHEV truck in the world.

I'm already researching gas generators for the Rivian, as a backup. 100lbs of generator+100lbs of gas would add another 100-200 miles of range, for emergency purposes.

 

[DucRider]

There is a vacuum of phev trucks/offroad capable suv's. Not a single one exists.

I guess it depends on you version of "offroad capable". The Mitsubishi Outlander and RAV4 Prime would qualify for many.

I really hope the 4xe jeeps are reliable (the same system has been in the Chrysler pacifica for awhile now) and sell like hotcakes, and if they put it into the gladiator it will be not only the cost capable off-road truck but also the only PHEV truck in the world.

Unfortunately, the Pacifica Hybrid has been plagued by problems with the PHEV portion of the drivetrain and faced several recalls. Production has been halted at least twice to correct ongoing issues, with limited success.
The other knock on the Chrysler offering is that it offers zero user control over EV vs ICE use. There is no way to select to drive it only on EV before the gas kicks in. Probably a marketing decision based on their target customer, but still a complaint of many owners.

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