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R1T versus F150 Hybrid/Electric...

SANZC02

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I went to the link and looked at the tabulated data. Edmunds was not able to produce the EPA estimated range with any of the Teslas yet in all cases, except the Performance S, they measured consumption less than the EPA estimates. How can this be?

Clearly there is more to this testing than you are assuming.

I am a sample size of one and have owned two Teslas. With each I realized better than EPA performance when driving it in a manner and under conditions which one would reasonably expect to give better than the EPA estimate and conversely.
Just to add one more example to this conversation.

I am in SoCal, moderate temps and fairly flat, I can meet the EPA estimates only if I make it a forced effort to accelerate slowly and drive at or below the speed limits.

I have not reset one of my trip meters since day one and it is giving me a 320 Watts per mile average over 41K miles. I think Tesla uses 300 watts per mile for the Model S estimates so I am around 93% of rated range. That number is for my normal driving and not babying the car, I am usually taking advantage of what the car offers and not worrying about range.

My wife recently started driving it as her primary car, I reset one trip meter when she started driving and she is not at 300 but much closer than me at 305.
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n8dgr8

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Just to add one more example to this conversation.

I am in SoCal, moderate temps and fairly flat, I can meet the EPA estimates only if I make it a forced effort to accelerate slowly and drive at or below the speed limits.

I have not reset one of my trip meters since day one and it is giving me a 320 Watts per mile average over 41K miles. I think Tesla uses 300 watts per mile for the Model S estimates so I am around 93% of rated range. That number is for my normal driving and not babying the car, I am usually taking advantage of what the car offers and not worrying about range.

My wife recently started driving it as her primary car, I reset one trip meter when she started driving and she is not at 300 but much closer than me at 305.
Real world road trip in Seattle with hot or cold weather, headed over a pass at 72 mph 360-370 watts per mile is typical for me. I also get range anxiety below 30 miles of spare.
 

ajdelange

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I am in SoCal, moderate temps and fairly flat, I can meet the EPA estimates only if I make it a forced effort to accelerate slowly and drive at or below the speed limits.
I don't find it necessary to do that but it is probably only fair to point out that at 75 I don't think I am driving as aggressively as I did at 15. Mrs. thinks that the pedal either has to be full down or full back. She hasn't caught on that intermediate positions are allowable. Even so she turns in about 111% efficiency (around town including some freeway).

I think Tesla uses 300 watts per mile for the Model S estimates so I am around 93% of rated range.
You can find out what that number is. It is shown as a solid horizontal line on the energy display. Drive around with that display enabled adjusting speed until the average (dashed line) overlays the solid line as closely as you can get it to. Then read the number from the box which shows the average.

My wife recently started driving it as her primary car, I reset one trip meter when she started driving and she is not at 300 but much closer than me at 305.
Well that's 98% which isn't too bad at all.

Don't know if you use Stats but it keeps track of average efficiency across the fleet (or the part of it that uses Stats anyway) of all current Tesla models over time. Last summer efficiency got as high as 95% and the summer before as high as 96%. Last winter it was as low as 85% and the winter before that it dipped to about 83%.

Rivian R1T R1S R1T versus F150 Hybrid/Electric... IMG_30DCCF26CAB4-1


My ultimate take on all this is that efficiency (consumption relative to rated consumption) varies with season, as one would expect it to and that the average driver does not realize the EPA performance. Why that is I am not quite sure but I am guessing that it has something to do with the fact that one is just too tempted to do the things the car will do that make it so much fun to drive but which make it less efficient.

Of course everyone wants to make the point that Tesla is somehow cheating. The Edmund's data doesn't pass the smell test for sure but I would very much like to see Stats data, or something like it, for other BEV.
 
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McMoo

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F150 is reportedly at 300 mile range WITH 1000lb of cargo and thoughts are it could be closer to 400 miles without now...

https://electrek.co/2021/05/28/ford-f150-lightning-range-cargo/

Based on the charging specs and estimated battery pack size I doubt it will get that mileage.

Charging into the pack is 17.6 kw and they quote an 85% charge in 8 hours.

(17.6 x 8)/85% = 165.65 kwh
pack size. I would bet the truck can get 2 miles per kWh in the real world which gives a range of 330 miles which is still impressive. It’s possible you could get that up slightly in ideal conditions.

I typically beat the EPA in mixed driving during spring, summer and fall in my model 3 but winter brings lifetime efficiency way down. I’m at 260 wh/mile lifetime vs 242 rated but winter is always over 300.

My guess is Ford is sandbagging at 300 miles but I wouldn’t expect near 400 miles.

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2022/f-150-lightning/pdf/F-150_Lightning_Tech_Specs.pdf
 

LoneStar

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For those here legitimately contemplating a hybrid truck alternative, then wait 6-9 months with Toyota introducing all-new 2022 Tundra full-size truck in a Hybrid configuration. Right now almost all speculation with little firm info, but enough 'skuttle-butt' that it almost surely will be based on a new engine powertrain 3.4L V6-twin turbo (much like Ford's bigger Ecoboost engine used in its Hybrid).

Its possible that Toyota will take the Ford approach of a very "mild hybrid" with a smallish battery. The anticipation surrounds a possible 2022 Tundra-Prime plug-in hybrid with that same twin-turbo V6 paired with a decent sized battery (35-50 kWh) providing more meaningful all-electric (short lived) driving. Having that will vastly improve the city eMPG rating into the mid-high 30's. Now that would be a sweet, versatile combo.
 
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I don't know if anyone has seen this about the F150, but MKBHD just dropped his first impressions video and there's a really interesting tidbit about the range numbers. Apparently, the 300mile long range that Ford quoted includes a thousand pounds of payload. That's crazy! He does some math to extrapolate which may or may not be accurate, but it sounds like the Lightning will be capable of far more than 300 miles with a light cargo load.
 

MJB28

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Just got a Powerboost and changed my launch edition from a T to a S. Traded in my 3500 Chevy diesel with 8’ bed for the F150 with 6.5’ bed. I use my truck mostly for work and I would have had to keep the diesel if I got the R1T. The F150 gets way better mpg then the diesel and has the 7.2 kw generator. Good for work and haven’t tried yet but should be able to charge the Tesla and HD Livewire if needed.
Still super excited about Rivian and I think the R1S will be better for me.
Rivian R1T R1S R1T versus F150 Hybrid/Electric... 56535F56-1898-40B1-8B9B-680681F3A929
 

the long way downunder

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FWIW, I have 8000+ miles on a '21 F-150 Hybrid and I have a "day one" order placed on the R1T. I expect the Rivian to replace my Tesla Model X and the F-150 will continue as the all-rounder … long distance driving and towing, hauling and whatever needs a lot of grunt. The Rivian will be the family wagon and the short range off-roader to maybe tow snowmobiles to the trail head or just to get out there and ride mountain bikes or drop the boat in the river.
Like Tesla, Rivian doesn't have a long distance touring solution. If your time is worth nothing to you, sure, sit in Superchargers for 45 minutes every 200 miles. I've done that for a couple of years and I've had enough. It's only getting worse. Till someone delivers a vehicle with much better battery energy density and much faster charge rates (at least equivalent to gasoline vehicles) I think touring in an EV is more of a sufferance to make a statement than it is recreation.
If you rarely make long distance drives (no towing, or anything longer than starting with 90% and charging once at 5% up to say 80% resulting in perhaps 500 miles with a one hour stop along a very restricted selection of routes) then the X or the Rivian are fine. I've had three Teslas, I've done multiple cross-country trips of 2000 miles, often 1000 miles in a day to get from one location to the next without wanting to stop in hotels (covid and time wasted, both being issues) often driving in blizzards or sweltering heat, or headwinds, or encountering delays like crowded Superchargers or roads closed due to collisions or storms where it's not possible to just sit and idle away battery reserves, I have to shut down and either freeze or sweat out the delays … EVs are not ready for distance driving … so I got the F-150 Prius … it's the right tool for the job … and tows properly. Ford has come a long way. The '21 F-150 is pretty much a luxury sedan with excellent technology, great steering, "good" handling and "okay" ride quality. I think it could use air suspension like the RAM and the seats are nowhere near as comfortable as the Tesla seats (Tesla really figured out how to build a seat with no pressure points, but it very wide … zero support for cornering.)
My advice is rather self-contradictory:
1. I'd encourage anyone to buy the '21 F-150 Prius
2. I'd encourage anyone to buy a Tesla (S,3,X,Y) depending upon condition, price, purpose.
Ironically, it's really hard to buy the F-150 Hybrid or any Tesla (new or used) right now (Aug '21) because production has not kept up with demand and the secondary market has gone mad.
So my advice is "do nothing" for a month and see what plays out.
I guess if I have to offer a decision, I'd encourage anyone to buy the F-150 Hybrid. It's just that good.
 

hola29

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Other than work trucks, I see 95% of the trucks w/ 6' or longer beds completely empty. Everyday. Not saying these many thousands of people don't maximize their bed once in a while, but I rarely see it...The whole concept of the American truck is utility but I wonder if a study was done on exactly how frequently the bed is actually used in total number of hours per year per vehicle...my very very unscientific observation is very very little...

Hello all!
Love this forum and all the great info shared. Been thinking harder about why I want a Rivian R1T versus a standard traditional truck. For comparisons, I am using a currently available F150 Hybrid and potential future F150 Electric. I wanted to list some pros/cons below and would appreciate other's input on them. A few qualifiers first:
  • I am a current F150 platinum owner and never owned an electric vehicle
  • I classify as a weekend warrior - which means my current truck is a daily driver but used as a truck on many weekends, including towing on occasion
  • I am trying to decide between going with my LE R1T reservation or back out, buy a F150 hybrid now then look at current 2nd gen truck EV options in 2 or 3 years.
  • CT off the table as its Fugly, Hummer EV cause it's overkill for my needs [plus color/cost]
  • Live in midwest where winters can be significant factors - cold/ice/snow/etc...
  • While the 'cool' factor is huge, let's be honest its' been over 2 years since reservation and so far there has only been deletions of tech/options not additions. My practical side is now taking over and asking 'what do you really need?'
Pros for R1T:
  • new tech/unique vehicle/cool factor
  • covered storage - frunk and gear tunnel... hope we can buy the base rails/track for kitchen to build custom applications like a gun rack...
  • quiet factor/off road capability
  • built in bed cover
  • availability June/July 2021 [reservation #1196...]
  • minimal maintenance
  • no need for cold weather fill ups in winter under daily drive conditions - charge from home
  • built in air compressor
  • live 30 min from factory... :) can pick up direct... also less worries about repairs/parts with factory so close...
  • Alexa integration?
  • smaller than 1/2 ton but larger than colorado/ranger means slightly easier parking due to size
Pros for F150:
  • hybrid available now
  • 6' bed with easy access
  • 30 amp 240 volt power in bed [search TFL on youtube to see the new 2021 F150 hybrid power 2 RV trailers at the same time.... anther video shows it charging a BMW electric vehicle]
  • 700 mile range/fast fill ups
  • getting a lot of good press online
Cons for R1T:
  • too short bed
  • basic endgate now - no 180 folding or easy access method
  • no power folding access steps
  • window only option for roof - I never use these as sun gets between my eyes and glasses causing massive glare - always use screen/covering on glass roofs - having to do a cheap workaround does not seem right for a proposed luxury/lifestyle vehicle
  • autonomous features 'cool' but in practicality will rarely use them - roads where I live not designated for usage and in winter conditions I would expect sensors to be inactive due to ice/snow [like it happens on my truck today] - while very nice tech, when would I use them? Also not sure I trust them. My employer sells fully autonomous vehicles and they work very well in controlled environments when all other vehicles are also autonomous. What happens in an uncontrolled environment when a human makes an error? how does the autonomous respond? In the tech I have today [albeit a few years old] I can react much faster than the truck sensors...
  • range - I get nervous when my existing truck gets down to half...
  • to date have not seen or driven in person - very important factor
  • no carplay?
Cons for F150 Hybrid/electric:
  • late to the game - when will electric F150 go on sale? 2022 or later?
  • unknown specs for future F150 EV
  • More maintenance/higher cost [hybrid]
  • higher fuel costs [hybrid]
What have I missed on this list? Would be awesome to hear from the form their additions/changes to this list!
 

the long way downunder

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Other than work trucks, I see 95% of the trucks w/ 6' or longer beds completely empty. Everyday. Not saying these many thousands of people don't maximize their bed once in a while, but I rarely see it...The whole concept of the American truck is utility but I wonder if a study was done on exactly how frequently the bed is actually used in total number of hours per year per vehicle...my very very unscientific observation is very very little...
I think they're just completely different owners (users) … I chose a 6.5' bed for my F-150 Hybrid because the 5.5' bed just doesn't hold what I carry (I futzed around with this before deciding … I was replacing the even larger Ford Excursion so I had to see what I really needed of its humungous capacity. I decided I wanted an even shorter bed than the 5.5, or I'd stick with the 6.5 … if anything, I want more enclosed space (not necessarily SUV body) so I'll probably just put a bed "topper" on the 6.5' bed. When the R1T arrives, it will probably get a bed topper as soon as the aftermarket offers it.
The even shorter R1S is less useful, I think, but then again, I wear the pants in this family … and my wife chooses them for me … : )
 

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n8dgr8

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For those here legitimately contemplating a hybrid truck alternative, then wait 6-9 months with Toyota introducing all-new 2022 Tundra full-size truck in a Hybrid configuration. Right now almost all speculation with little firm info, but enough 'skuttle-butt' that it almost surely will be based on a new engine powertrain 3.4L V6-twin turbo (much like Ford's bigger Ecoboost engine used in its Hybrid).

Its possible that Toyota will take the Ford approach of a very "mild hybrid" with a smallish battery. The anticipation surrounds a possible 2022 Tundra-Prime plug-in hybrid with that same twin-turbo V6 paired with a decent sized battery (35-50 kWh) providing more meaningful all-electric (short lived) driving. Having that will vastly improve the city eMPG rating into the mid-high 30's. Now that would be a sweet, versatile combo.
OK, the 2022 Tundra is out. I'm completely underwhelmed.
 

SeaGeo

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OK, the 2022 Tundra is out. I'm completely underwhelmed.
Toyota seems to have lost connection with a chunk of their market. Just my opinion, but seems to be consistent among fans of their trucks I know. Almost everyone has wanted a prime version of either for quite awhile.
 

CommodoreAmiga

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Toyota seems to have lost connection with a chunk of their market. Just my opinion, but seems to be consistent among fans of their trucks I know. Almost everyone has wanted a prime version of either for quite awhile.
The 2022 Tundra seems like an "okay" truck compared to what's been available for the last few years -- but that's exactly the problem; it's a mediocre competitor to existing products. The last Tundra went 14 years without a major redesign (2007-2021). Just think how POORLY this Tundra is going to age to anyone who isn't drunk on Toyota kool-aid.

There lies the problem, however. I think there are a lot of people drunk on Toyota kool-aid. There are too many Toyota fans who will take a two-decade-out-of-date design and slurp it up. It boggles my mind that Toyota has been able to keep selling Tundras that are rated only 13/17 mpg. But idiots fawn over them.

I remember seeing some interviews with Toyota engineers when the Tacoma was updated in 2016 and a journalist pushed a little bit about "why" some aspects of the truck were not updated -- still only rear drum brakes, manual hand brake, stuff like that. The engineer said they considered updating everything but their market research indicated that Tacoma buyers didn't want it. They wanted OLD tech. Apparently there was a surprisingly large group of people who didn't even want a screen (which is required, by law, now). The engineer said that even including basic power adjustments on the drivers seat was a controversial addition.

So perhaps there are enough customer who are afraid of change. Toyota is clearly pandering to that crowd. Personally, that is not a group I want to be associated with.
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