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R1S Lease vs. Buy - I did the math

bigsky

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Fair enough, I see things in a similar manner except I view it as so long as my investments and income exceed my debts I’m debt free as I could liquidate and pay them off whenever.
I do see the point in putting that money to work for you and going the loan route. Of course. Heck, more money in your pocket is never a bad thing in America. I just prefer not to owe anything to anybody.
Higher tax implications later on, the effect of higher income in other areas, higher cost, they all can be managed down.
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Donald Stanfield

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I do see the point in putting that money to work for you and going the loan route. Of course. Heck, more money in your pocket is never a bad thing in America. I just prefer not to owe anything to anybody.
Higher tax implications later on, the effect of higher income in other areas, higher cost, they all can be managed down.
You're absolutely free to manage your money however you see fit. That's the one point of money, it allows the freedom to live the way you want to.
 

bigsky

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Depends on your current tax bracket but usually the idea is to leave that money alone until retirement when it’s your only income so you only draw enough off to keep you under whatever bracket you can live off the intersection of the amount saved and your lifestyle.

You’re right though you’d have to pay tax on the gain via capital gains but unless you’re over 500k a year it’s only 15%.
In retirement, if investments start to go South, cashing it all out may have pretty nasty financial consequences if indeed you get pushed into higher brackets. And in retirement, as if Uncle Sam so hopelessly addicted to our money were not awful enough, his Big Sister Medicare joins in with income brackets of her own, which can result in pretty hefty and higher Medicare required premiums at least for one year.
 

bigsky

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You're absolutely free to manage your money however you see fit. That's the one point of money, it allows the freedom to live the way you want to.
As the saying goes, money may not buy you happiness, but it sure as hell can finance a pretty awesome illusion thereof.
 

Donald Stanfield

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In retirement, if investments start to go South, cashing it all out may have pretty nasty financial consequences if indeed you get pushed into higher brackets. And in retirement, as if Uncle Sam so hopelessly addicted to our money were not awful enough, his Big Sister Medicare joins in with income brackets of her own, which can result in pretty hefty and higher Medicare required premiums at least for one year.
We are opening up a huge bag of worms here, but this is where diversification matters. Ideally, you don't have all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. A little in stable dividend stocks, a little in mutual funds, some in stocks, some in metals or real estate. A good financial planner should give you a fair growth profile while minimizing risk. It's also important to remember that risk is usually worse when viewed in a short term and reward is usually better when viewed in the long term.
 

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Donald Stanfield

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As the saying goes, money may not buy you happiness, but it sure as hell can finance a pretty awesome illusion thereof.
I saying I heard is money cannot buy happiness, but it's more comfortable to cry in a Mercedes than a jalopy.
 

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You're not thinking about the time value of money. I completely agree with your sentiment of having the money to fund your purchases fully, but I do not agree with using that money to buy the vehicle. Let's say your car cost 100K and you plan on keeping it 10 years. You give Rivian your 100K and get your R1 free and clear. I finance the whole thing for 60 months paying 5% interest. I then take the 100K I saved for my truck and put it in a mutual fund averaging 10% over 10 years; a few have paid better than that over the same period.

After those 10 years, assuming we both kept our R1s this entire time, I will have paid an extra 13,227.00 dollars for my R1 than you would have. However, the 100K I put in that mutual fund 10 years prior is now worth 259,374. So I would have an extra 146,147, over double my initial investment, in my pocket. If you have enough money that an extra 146K dollars doesn't mean anything to your financial picture then you're right paying cash doesn't matter.
 

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I do see the point in putting that money to work for you and going the loan route. Of course. Heck, more money in your pocket is never a bad thing in America. I just prefer not to owe anything to anybody.
Higher tax implications later on, the effect of higher income in other areas, higher cost, they all can be managed down.
There is a cost of the debt free feeling, most likely less money overall and that's ok. That' s your choice and many others (especially the people who follow Dave Ramsey). I will never pay more mortgage early since it's at 2.75% over 30 years. Almost free money compared to the interest rates these days. I do like when Dave Ramsey asks callers when they question paying off their mortgage vs. investing, if they would take out a loan at 3% to invest in the stock market. Hell yeah I would do that, especially if the loan is fixed over 30 years.
 

jlbeau

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You're not thinking about the time value of money. I completely agree with your sentiment of having the money to fund your purchases fully, but I do not agree with using that money to buy the vehicle. Let's say your car cost 100K and you plan on keeping it 10 years. You give Rivian your 100K and get your R1 free and clear. I finance the whole thing for 60 months paying 5% interest. I then take the 100K I saved for my truck and put it in a mutual fund averaging 10% over 10 years; a few have paid better than that over the same period.

After those 10 years, assuming we both kept our R1s this entire time, I will have paid an extra 13,227.00 dollars for my R1 than you would have. However, the 100K I put in that mutual fund 10 years prior is now worth 259,374. So I would have an extra 146,147, over double my initial investment, in my pocket. If you have enough money that an extra 146K dollars doesn't mean anything to your financial picture then you're right paying cash doesn't matter.
Hmm... Is it reasonable to look at your example at 5 years and not 10. In that way both choices are equally evaluated and on the same footing financially at the end of your loan. We both own the vehicle outright. However, I have saved $13,227 in interest, like you I invested that for 5 years at a 10% return giving me $21,302. You have invested $100,000 for the 5 years with a 10% return giving you $47,824. The difference between the 2 is $26,522 over 5 years. Still an advantage over buying outright but not the $146,147 over 10 years you calculated. Also, your return of 10% over 5 years could be considered a bit aggressive given variability and risk over the shorter term. I would look at a 5-8% return over a 5-year horizon thus further compressing the difference. Just a different perspective
 

Donald Stanfield

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Hmm... Is it reasonable to look at your example at 5 years and not 10. In that way both choices are equally evaluated and on the same footing financially at the end of your loan. We both own the vehicle outright. However, I have saved $13,227 in interest, like you I invested that for 5 years at a 10% return giving me $21,302. You have invested $100,000 for the 5 years with a 10% return giving you $47,824. The difference between the 2 is $26,522 over 5 years. Still an advantage over buying outright but not the $146,147 over 10 years you calculated. Also, your return of 10% over 5 years could be considered a bit aggressive given variability and risk over the shorter term. I would look at a 5-8% return over a 5-year horizon thus further compressing the difference. Just a different perspective
You have a fair argument. I used 10 years to make the difference easier to see. Personally when I invest I consider that money gone until retirement so the 10 year difference still holds. Even if I buy two cars within that timeframe finance wise I’m at 26k interest over my 156k.
 

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jlbeau

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Hmm... Is it reasonable to look at your example at 5 years and not 10. In that way both choices are equally evaluated and on the same footing financially at the end of your loan. We both own the vehicle outright. However, I have saved $13,227 in interest, like you I invested that for 5 years at a 10% return giving me $21,302. You have invested $100,000 for the 5 years with a 10% return giving you $47,824. The difference between the 2 is $26,522 over 5 years. Still an advantage over buying outright but not the $146,147 over 10 years you calculated. Also, your return of 10% over 5 years could be considered a bit aggressive given variability and risk over the shorter term. I would look at a 5-8% return over a 5-year horizon thus further compressing the difference. Just a different perspective
OOOPPS Apologies. Disregard my math...my inputs were calculated in error. My $ gain on $13,227 at 10% return of 5 years is ~$8075. Your $ gain on $100,000 investment returning 10% over 5 years is a little over $61,000. A difference of almost $53,000 in your favor. I do stand by my time horizon of evaluating the comparison of the holding period of 5 years not 10 years and backing off a bit on the expected return on the investment of between 5-8%
 

bigsky

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There is a cost of the debt free feeling, most likely less money overall and that's ok. That' s your choice and many others (especially the people who follow Dave Ramsey). I will never pay more mortgage early since it's at 2.75% over 30 years. Almost free money compared to the interest rates these days. I do like when Dave Ramsey asks callers when they question paying off their mortgage vs. investing, if they would take out a loan at 3% to invest in the stock market. Hell yeah I would do that, especially if the loan is fixed over 30 years.
Have you calculated the actual cost of even a low interest mortgage over, say 30 years?
I myself saved over $200k in interest paying off my mortgage early.
For me it is fundamentally abhorrrent to have a loan note, owe anything to anybody, cc debt, and so on.
For many, it might make sense to take out loans, even huge ones. For others like me, it absolutely does not. Some simply may not need the extra money presumably earned through the investing of those monies less the costs of servicing that debt. It actually may complicate things and make other expenses higher.
It does depend on your personal situation and what is important to you.
 

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Have you calculated the actual cost of even a low interest mortgage over, say 30 years?
I myself saved over $200k in interest paying off my mortgage early.
For me it is fundamentally abhorrrent to have a loan note, owe anything to anybody, cc debt, and so on.
For many, it might make sense to take out loans, even huge ones. For others like me, it absolutely does not. Some simply may not need the extra money presumably earned through the investing of those monies less the costs of servicing that debt. It actually may complicate things and make other expenses higher.
It does depend on your personal situation and what is important to you.
Yep have calculated it many times and investing the money always comes out on top by a significant margin. So even though I could pay off my house I choose not to since I will end up with more money in the long run.

So while I appreciate people wanting to be debt free and have that feeling, I like to do the math and use a strategy that makes me the most money.
 

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One component not being considered in favor of the one paying off the loan/lease early:
* the monthly lease/loan $ that is no longer being paid to the bank, that money is now available for investment - monthly, and the return on that $ should be considered.
 

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I went through the same analysis. The jury is still out on how much of these are actually upgrades in Gen 2. For an R1S, I would have gone with Gen 2 as the ride and drive was significantly better.

I live in Texas, and at high temps, heat pumps aren't as efficient as normal AC systems. Basically anytime over about 85F which is a lot of my year here. Given that it will be a 1st gen heatpump for Rivian, I figured there could be issues there.

While overall there were a lot of changes, a lot were to reduce costs for Rivian. I had looked at the list before driving a Gen 2 after driving Gen 1 Rivians and none of them really made a difference in my driving experience other than the R1S ride improvements.

My 2023 has the new cast subframe so that was a plus. I always try to avoid first year cars in general, including the first year of a new generation. All those changes take a while to get baked through. I may byy a first year of a new gen, but typically later in the production run when they might have incorporated updates to the updates.

After by my R1T, I'll likely drive it into the ground or if by then Gen 3 is out and big enough upgrade go with it or maybe something is better in the market by then.
Hi there- can you offer what manuf dates have cast sub frame? I’m looking at Gen1 T now… post 5/23
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