Q for owners: does 12V outlet stay on at all times?

[Longreach]

Well if you consider that the 12v only works while the vehicle is on, it makes more sense. The bed plugs are more likely to be used when stationary. The most likely use for 12v in the bed while driving is a fridge, but then you'd have to switch it to the 120v when parked still. The other use for 12v in the bed is a water pump, but that definitely doesn't do you any good because you'll only use that when parked and therefore won't work (unless you turn truck on and waste power).

Not sure why they can't have a toggle for 12v power on/off while parked though.

The refrigerator is definitely the key use for 12v. The AC is useful for the occasional high current load, but grossly inefficient for continuous refrigeration or low power lighting.

It’s ironic that this all electric wonder vehicle with massive batteries actually has less electrical utility than my 10 year old ICE vehicle, which can passively support a refrigerator for up to 2 days and still start, or indefinitely with a modest solar panel.

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[DJG]

The refrigerator is definitely the key use for 12v. The AC is useful for the occasional high current load, but grossly inefficient for continuous refrigeration or low power lighting.

It’s ironic that this all electric wonder vehicle with massive batteries actually has less electrical utility than my 10 year old ICE vehicle, which can passively support a refrigerator for up to 2 days and still start, or indefinitely with a modest solar panel.

A 12v fridge runs just fine on AC power, just at about 20% more power usage.

Well that's just not true. The Rivian could power that same fridge for a full year on AC power. 12v fridges have battery protection functionality specifically for ICE vehicles so that they don't kill your battery. This is not needed when using an EV.

The Rivian, or any electric vehicle with AC or DC power outlets, offers far more electric utility than any stock ICE vehicle. That's not even debatable and it's not even remotely close for comparison.

Park your stock ICE vehicle for 4-5 days (without solar or power station) while having a fridge plugged in, using an induction cooktop for three meals per day, a water pump for showers and dishes, a blender to make margaritas and an air conditioner for your tent. Let me know how that works out.

 

[Longreach]

A 12v fridge runs just fine on AC power, just at about 20% more power usage.

Well that's just not true. The Rivian could power that same fridge for a full year on AC power. 12v fridges have battery protection functionality specifically for ICE vehicles so that they don't kill your battery. This is not needed when using an EV.

The Rivian, or any electric vehicle with AC or DC power outlets, offers far more electric utility than any stock ICE vehicle. That's not even debatable and it's not even remotely close for comparison.

Park your stock ICE vehicle for 4-5 days (without solar or power station) while having a fridge plugged in, using an induction cooktop for three meals per day, a water pump for showers and dishes, a blender to make margaritas and an air conditioner for your tent. Let me know how that works out.

I’m well aware of what either vehicle system can and can’t do, plus the energy consumption for various camping configurations.

The real problem here is the general lack of attention to energy efficiency by Rivian. Native DC power consumption is most efficient for long term low power use, second would be single conversion from the HV battery. All this AC conversion is just wasteful, regardless of how much you have on board. Besides, just being able to have AC on powers up all kinds of overhead vehicle functions which consume even more power.

Add in all the energy wasted when the Rivian just sits unused and it really falls short of the environmentally responsible outdoor adventure vehicle mantra.

For remote camping, one would be better off with a vehicle (BEV or gas) that actually shuts off when you shut it off, then use separate native 12v batteries for refrigeration/lighting. At least you know there’s enough energy (battery or gas) to get you back out.

The R1 design was driven by some high minded functional requirements, but energy efficiency is simply not yet in the Rivian DNA. And that is a huge disappointment that will leave countless people stranded in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Scherle]

Do the 12v outlets remain on at all times so as to keep fridge connected. I know the 120 plugs turn on/off from screen. Thanks in advance

I’m well aware of what either vehicle system can and can’t do, plus the energy consumption for various camping configurations.

The real problem here is the general lack of attention to energy efficiency by Rivian. Native DC power consumption is most efficient for long term low power use, second would be single conversion from the HV battery. All this AC conversion is just wasteful, regardless of how much you have on board. Besides, just being able to have AC on powers up all kinds of overhead vehicle functions which consume even more power.

Add in all the energy wasted when the Rivian just sits unused and it really falls short of the environmentally responsible outdoor adventure vehicle mantra.

For remote camping, one would be better off with a vehicle (BEV or gas) that actually shuts off when you shut it off, then use separate native 12v batteries for refrigeration/lighting. At least you know there’s enough energy (battery or gas) to get you back out.

The R1 design was driven by some high minded functional requirements, but energy efficiency is simply not yet in the Rivian DNA. And that is a huge disappointment that will leave countless people stranded in the middle of nowhere.

I pretty much agree with this.

If Rivian does have an energy management philosophy, they haven't exposed it in any of their documentation and it isn't apparent from how the vehicle works. As an engineer, I cringe seeing the profligate use of lights and climate control because I know how energy-expensive that stuff is. But I've had to recalibrate my thinking by realizing that a kilowatt (which is what it takes to run a DC fridge all night) is less than 1% of the battery pack.

In the case of the fridge, the compressor is designed to run on 12/24v. Plugging it into an AC outlet means you are converting from DC (probably 12v since that's an easy-to-source inverter) to 120 VAC to the refrigerator which converts it back to 12v DC. Each of those conversions entails a loss.

The losses aren't high, but it does all add up. And unlike an ICE, none of this stuff recharges when you start the engine, so what you leave home with is all you've got.

 

[DJG]

I’m well aware of what either vehicle system can and can’t do, plus the energy consumption for various camping configurations.

The real problem here is the general lack of attention to energy efficiency by Rivian. Native DC power consumption is most efficient for long term low power use, second would be single conversion from the HV battery. All this AC conversion is just wasteful, regardless of how much you have on board. Besides, just being able to have AC on powers up all kinds of overhead vehicle functions which consume even more power.

Add in all the energy wasted when the Rivian just sits unused and it really falls short of the environmentally responsible outdoor adventure vehicle mantra.

For remote camping, one would be better off with a vehicle (BEV or gas) that actually shuts off when you shut it off, then use separate native 12v batteries for refrigeration/lighting. At least you know there’s enough energy (battery or gas) to get you back out.

The R1 design was driven by some high minded functional requirements, but energy efficiency is simply not yet in the Rivian DNA. And that is a huge disappointment that will leave countless people stranded in the middle of nowhere.

You went off on a tangent, so not sure what to say to that. No reason to believe anyone will be left stranded (for any reasons unique to Rivian) though. Typical power usage (fridge, electric cooking, device charging), even entirely through AC, is only going to cost you a couple miles of range per day (1kwh at most). Vampire drain is down to another 3-4 miles per day. If you're left stranded, you screwed up.

I'm guessing there is a reason the 12v system is not available when the vehicle is off, we just don't know it yet. But even if there is not, it's really insignificant. Lastly, I think you have a different perspective on energy efficiency and environmental responsibility. You're coming from the starting point of no waste, with any significant deviation from that being counter to an environmental goal. Rivian is coming from a starting point of driving a 10-15 mpg ICE vehicle, and all of the waste those create that they are eliminating through converting to BEV. The energy potentially wasted through AC conversion is a far lost rounding error to the amount of energy saved by comparison to what owners used to drive. That would be like them giving a presentation showing all of the carbon reduction achieved by the thousands/millions of vehicles they put on the road several years from now, and you stand up in the crowd and say, "but what about not having 12v in the bed and having to use AC power!"" While technically true, kind of missing the forest for the trees...

 

[DJG]

In the case of the fridge, the compressor is designed to run on 12/24v. Plugging it into an AC outlet means you are converting from DC (probably 12v since that's an easy-to-source inverter) to 120 VAC to the refrigerator which converts it back to 12v DC. Each of those conversions entails a loss.

The losses aren't high, but it does all add up. And unlike an ICE, none of this stuff recharges when you start the engine, so what you leave home with is all you've got.

My Dometic only uses an average of about 10w once at temp, so it would take 100 hours or 4 days to use a kilowatt. The losses from AC conversion are therefore miniscule (2-3 watts).

 

[Scherle]

My Dometic only uses an average of about 10w once at temp, so it would take 100 hours or 4 days to use a kilowatt. The losses from AC conversion are therefore miniscule (2-3 watts).

Might all be true and we don't want to waste more time on this than it's worth, but I would be surprised at those numbers.

Just running an AC inverter with zero load at all uses power. Measurements I've made on a variety of inverters (not the Rivian) range from 0.6A to 2A with no load.

Also, Dometic is famously optomistic about their numbers, so unless those are your actual measured numbers, I don't trust them. Getting down to temperature and staying there are two different issues, especially when taking things in and out and dealing with a hot environment (I'm from Arizona).

You do have a lot of power, but I'm an engineer. I don't like to waste it unnecessarily. And upconverting just to downconvert is absolutely a waste. True, it's probably not mission critical, but it's also not best practice.

 

[R1Sky Business]

No, they do not. I have a small 12v coolor plugged into the gear tunnel outlet. It turns off when the vehicle is locked or when it goes to sleep. Rivian support confirmed that there is no way to change this behavior.

Would leaving frunk gently open do the job????

 

[Scherle]

Would leaving frunk gently open do the job????

No idea. I do know that buckling the driver's seat belt will keep the vehicle from going to sleep. But now you're keeping a lot of unnecessary systems active so you're defeating the purpose. At that point it's cheaper to use the AC plug.

 

[DJG]

Might all be true and we don't want to waste more time on this than it's worth, but I would be surprised at those numbers.

Just running an AC inverter with zero load at all uses power. Measurements I've made on a variety of inverters (not the Rivian) range from 0.6A to 2A with no load.

Also, Dometic is famously optomistic about their numbers, so unless those are your actual measured numbers, I don't trust them. Getting down to temperature and staying there are two different issues, especially when taking things in and out and dealing with a hot environment (I'm from Arizona).

You do have a lot of power, but I'm an engineer. I don't like to waste it unnecessarily. And upconverting just to downconvert is absolutely a waste. True, it's probably not mission critical, but it's also not best practice.

Those are my numbers, measured through the app for DC (10w average) and by calculating through battery drain from a Jackery for AC in same conditions (strangely the Dometic app only logs power draw when using DC). I'm in TX so similarly hot. Generally I'd be getting to temp at home before leaving (really just have it running all the time at home anyway). It might be closer to 5-10w more on AC, but still not entirely significant or impactful to daily life.

Note, the Lightning (or the ICE F150) also doesn't have 12v in the bed, so there must be a reason across all trucks. Does any truck have 12v in the bed?

 

[Scherle]

Those are my numbers, measured through the app for DC (10w average) and by calculating through battery drain from a Jackery for AC in same conditions (strangely the Dometic app only logs power draw when using DC). I'm in TX so similarly hot. Generally I'd be getting to temp at home before leaving (really just have it running all the time at home anyway). It might be closer to 5-10w more on AC, but still not entirely significant or impactful to daily life.

Note, the Lightning (or the ICE F150) also doesn't have 12v in the bed, so there must be a reason across all trucks. Does any truck have 12v in the bed?

I'm pretty sure that the reason they don't is the cost of the wire at the required gauge.

 

[R1Sky Business]

No idea. I do know that buckling the driver's seat belt will keep the vehicle from going to sleep. But now you're keeping a lot of unnecessary systems active so you're defeating the purpose. At that point it's cheaper to use the AC plug.

Much obliged

 

[Longreach]

Those are my numbers, measured through the app for DC (10w average) and by calculating through battery drain from a Jackery for AC in same conditions (strangely the Dometic app only logs power draw when using DC). I'm in TX so similarly hot. Generally I'd be getting to temp at home before leaving (really just have it running all the time at home anyway). It might be closer to 5-10w more on AC, but still not entirely significant or impactful to daily life.

Note, the Lightning (or the ICE F150) also doesn't have 12v in the bed, so there must be a reason across all trucks. Does any truck have 12v in the bed?

The Ford Maverick has two high current 12v power points in the bed on all trim levels, including the $20k base model. It is not a cost issue.

 

[DJG]

The Ford Maverick has two high current 12v power points in the bed on all trim levels, including the $20k base model. It is not a cost issue.

Would be curious the reasoning for Ford doing that but leaving them out of their higher priced trucks. My guess is that 12v is not viewed as a "work truck" outlet, it's kind of a niche plug and inferior to 110/240v, and most truck owners would rather have the latter than the former in the bed. Also, in most trucks in particular and maybe even still in the Rivian, a 12v plug would not hold up to the jarring of speed bumps and off road driving, and the plug would come out of the socket while driving without you knowing. It's already an issue in the rear of SUVs, much less a truck. If Rivian were to have 12v power in the bed in future versions, they should actually look at implementing via Anderson Power Pole connections.

The point remains that under the current system of the 12v only being on while the truck is on, the lack of one in the bed is less of an issue, and at worst it's only a waste of a few watts of power. It doesn't impinge on usability.

 

[mgc0216]

The R1 design was driven by some high minded functional requirements, but energy efficiency is simply not yet in the Rivian DNA. And that is a huge disappointment that will leave countless people stranded in the middle of nowhere.

Hyperbolic much?

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