Potential Truly Game Changing Tech - Nano Diamond Self Charging Batteries

[skyote]

If this proves to be viable & safe, it will change our entire existence.

https://newatlas.com/energy/nano-diamond-self-charging-batteries-ndb/

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[electruck]

I saw that. Very interesting indeed. Would be fantastic if it becomes a reality in our lifetime.

It does raise some interesting questions about battery packaging or "format" when that format may need to be compatible with applications over decades, centuries or possibly even millennia. They mention being able to produce AA, 2170, etc cells... but how long will those formats be relevant and how would existing NDB cells in those formats be recycled/repurposed when the format was obsolete?

 

[thrill]

TANSTAAFL.

TLDR: the recharge rate is miniscule with betavoltaic systems

 

[ajdelange]

I get that there is lots of C14 out there and that it undergoes ß decay and that the electron carries energy and I even get that they have manufactured "batteries" based on this that produce 100 uW. But from there to a power pack that must deliver peak energies of 150 kW -- that's a bit of a stretch. I did used to joke about RTG powered electric vehicles, though.

 

[skyote]

TANSTAAFL

I had to google your acronym, but I agree in principle & that's why I made the disclaimer about being viable & safe. We know that you can get a lot of energy from a small amount of nuclear material though...that is a fact.

However, the video linked is ridiculous & the guy makes too many assumptions that could be very wrong. He assumes the size of the battery in the image, which could be wrong. He assumes that the entire volume of that size is what is creating the energy (i.e. goes against the stated energy density claims); for example, there could be a very small generating core, but built to fit an existing form factor for a known application. The central problem with the video is how his entire video (or at least the 10 mins I could bear to watch) revolve around that image & possibly incorrect assumptions about the size & energy density. And to top it off, he's annoying AF.

If I was a physics guy, and I'm admittedly not, I would be more interested in that video he mentioned...I just don't care to invest the time and brain cells to watch it. Revolutionary technology if the reality comes anywhere close to the claims, but I put this in the "interesting & let's see what happens" category with so many other ideas/research.

 

[skyote]

I get that there is lots of C14 out there and that it undergoes ß decay and that the electron carries energy and I even get that they have manufactured "batteries" based on this that produce 100 uW. But from there to a power pack that must deliver peak energies of 150 kW -- that's a bit of a stretch. I did used to joke about RTG powered electric vehicles, though.

The question is the real energy density of the generator...I would ignore the 100 uW from that guy's video for the reasons stated above.

 

[electruck]

While I am still extremely skeptical, there is published material that would suggest suggest the above 100 uW example is just a small scale application.

The following abstract is just something that turned up in search - not something I have personally vetted.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0925963517307495

This suggests a specific energy of 3300 Wh/kg as compared to a M3 2170 cell with 247 Wh/kg (again, unverified). The Ni isotope was thus an order of magnitude improvement over conventional chemical cells. The diamond based cell is supposed to be a generation beyond the Ni based with claims of even better performance. Only time will tell whether any of this is real, scalable and commercially viable.

 

[ajdelange]

I guess my point was missed. 100 uW has been demonstrated. We need 150 kW. That's over 9 orders of magnitude! The company says the technology can be scaled to that level but you can't blame some of us for being skeptical as to whether we will see that in our lifetimes.

 

[skyote]

I guess my point was missed. 100 uW has been demonstrated. We need 150 kW. That's over 9 orders of magnitude! The company says the technology can be scaled to that level but you can't blame some of us for being skeptical as to whether we will see that in our lifetimes.

Healthy skepticism is important for any emerging technologies, and I have it, trust me. It sounds like an approach with potential, but countless variables and challenges with practical application will have to be overcome.

Plus, we don't know what has actually been demonstrated/tested...ignore that 100 uW nonsense.

 

[ajdelange]

The physics is real (it's not perpetual motion, it doesn't violate the law of thermo dynamics), "ß batteries" have been demonstrated before, the technology has been reported on in professional publications, the researchers are from a respected institution (U of Bristol). Why should we ignore the 100 uW? True, one demonstrated battery using diamond Shockley diodes produced more like 100 nw but that only implies 12 orders of magnitude rather than 9 in scaling to 150 kW.

 

[craigsj]

I guess my point was missed. 100 uW has been demonstrated. We need 150 kW. That's over 9 orders of magnitude! The company says the technology can be scaled to that level but you can't blame some of us for being skeptical as to whether we will see that in our lifetimes.

Specific energy matters but it is not the only, or even the most important, consideration. OK, this battery may represent an order of magnitude improvement in specific energy, but its power/kg capability is only 1/200 that of modern batteries used in automotive applications. If you want to exploit the increased specific energy, you need do even more than overcome that 200x penalty.

 

[ajdelange]

I guess my point is still being missed. I said nothing about specific energy. The specific energy looks favorable. I spoke only of the fact that the technology has been demonstrated at a level 9 - 12 orders of magnitude less than is practical for a car. That's a lot of orders of magnitude that need to be bridged.

 

[electruck]

I guess my point is still being missed. I said nothing about specific energy. The specific energy looks favorable. I spoke only of the fact that the technology has been demonstrated at a level 9 - 12 orders of magnitude less than is practical for a car. That's a lot of orders of magnitude that need to be bridged.

But of course there is much work to be done and issues of science, manufacturing and economics to be resolved. Otherwise manufacturers would already be delivering products built around this technology. The first Li batteries were also not of a scale suitable for a BEV. But somehow they managed to develop that technology from lab experiment to products supporting a wide range of products from watches to automobiles. Of course, this scaling wasn't achieved purely at the cell level. Automotive scale applications are supported by combining many batteries into packs. This doesn't guarantee that NDB will ever develop beyond the laboratory but just because the tech is in its infancy doesn't mean it can't be developed further.

Many lab experiments fizzle out and go nowhere but others change the world. The future of this tech will only be revealed in the years and, yes, decades to come. And yes, some of us are indeed interested in what might be over the horizon.

 

[CappyJax]

While I am still extremely skeptical, there is published material that would suggest suggest the above 100 uW example is just a small scale application.

The following abstract is just something that turned up in search - not something I have personally vetted.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0925963517307495

This suggests a specific energy of 3300 Wh/kg as compared to a M3 2170 cell with 247 Wh/kg (again, unverified). The Ni isotope was thus an order of magnitude improvement over conventional chemical cells. The diamond based cell is supposed to be a generation beyond the Ni based with claims of even better performance. Only time will tell whether any of this is real, scalable and commercially viable.

3,300Wh/kg over 5,730 years. So, in 52,000,000 hours you get 3,300Wh/kg. That comes our to 63µW of power per kg.

 

[Coast2Coast]

This is not game changing, but it responds to a number of ongoing queries about installing home chargers without doing a lot of add-on electrical work. Cal Poly engineers figured out how to share circuits with clothes driers & another new product shares charging for two EVs on the same circuit.
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ng-flexibility-without-costly-electrical-work

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