paddle shifters yes or no?

[ajdelange]

I don't think he is trolling at all. He is entitled to his opinion.

If he wants to limit the definition of "paddle" to a stalk of a given shape that is fine. If he wonders what functions those might control then the answer is probably none as the common functions as listed in my post are usually handled with "protrusions" from the steering column that we are all familiar with and it seems that "paddles" have been used for regen but it seems regen is now controlled by the "skinny pedal" with on off control relegated to the screen. Nothing to say that Rivian has to do it that way nor that they will do it that way.

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[DuckTruck]

The Bolt works this way also, but even in Drive you get mild regen. If you want no regen, you have to go into neutral. Personally I like the GM setup and it took me only a couple of drives to learn how to use the one pedal driving accurately.

azbill, The Volt/ELRs also give mild regen in Drive when letting off the accelerator. I've also put in Neutral from time to time to coast freely. Like you, I'm comfortable with GM's system.

I have to admit that on more than one occasion, after climbing into my Volvo after the ELR, I've applied the paddle braking, only to be reminded that the paddles there are actually shifters. Luckily, it's always been when a downshift was appropriate, but it startled me a little. Thankfully, I only gave it one tug.

As A.J. points out, there are many options for the functionality of paddles (and stalks). Whatever Rivian comes up with, I appreciate any capabilities that are provided while allowing me to keep my hands on (or near) the wheel.

 

[ajdelange]

A related question occurs to me and I hope people won't feel I'm dragging the thread too far away from the original question and that is with respect to regen. That question is "Would you all be happy with regen completely controlled via the skinny pedal (one pedal driving) or would you prefer it to be completely or at least partially controlled via a paddle or require that the brake (fat) pedal be pressed?"

 

[Eager2own]

A related question occurs to me and I hope people won't feel I'm dragging the thread too far away from the original question and that is with respect to regen. That question is "Would you all be happy with regen completely controlled via the skinny pedal (one pedal driving) or would you prefer it to be completely or at least partially controlled via a paddle or require that the brake (fat) pedal be pressed?"

I think the ideal answer to that is “yes.” One pedal driving versus not is something that should be available with simple setting in main display. Both options should be available.
That is how Ford and others have addressed it.

Even better (and bringing the discussion back full circle to the thread topic) would be that paddles are available to also engage heavier regen temporarily without having to activate it on the display instead.

 

[ajdelange]

What I think I'm really getting at is as to why anyone would ever want less than the "heaviest" regen all the time because I think that experienced drivers want the most they can get always. I suspect there is a "learning curve" issue hidden in here somewhere.

 

[cohall]

What I think I'm really getting at is as to why anyone would ever want less than the "heaviest" regen all the time because I think that experienced drivers want the most they can get always. I suspect there is a "learning curve" issue hidden in here somewhere.

As one example, the driver during the Rebelle Rally noted that the heavy regen caused her tires to dig into sand when not wanted, apparently getting her stuck at least once. In that situation, mild regen might have worked, while heavy regen did not.

Icy/Snow-packed roads is another example. Heavy regen may cause a skid when mild regen would only cause a slow, similar to modulating how much brake force you apply. Living in Colorado and traveling snowy/icy roads all winter, I would not want heavy regen on many of my travels.

 

[ajdelange]

Not sure I understand. If you want less regen you simply move the skinny pedal forward a smidge. Well that's how in works in a Tesla. The real reason I don't understand is because I don't know how it was set up in the Rebelle truck(s). I wonder if the comment related to pedal sensitivity.

 

[cohall]

Not sure I understand. If you want less regen you simply move the skinny pedal forward a smidge. Well that's how in works in a Tesla. The real reason I don't understand is because I don't know how it was set up in the Rebelle truck(s). I wonder if the comment related to pedal sensitivity.

I was simply responding to your question regarding "why anyone would ever want less than the "heaviest" regen all the time", and gave two real-world examples.

If I start to skid on ice and pull my foot off the accelerator pedal to get things straightened out, I certainly wouldn't want the equivalent of the brakes being mashed to the floor. I want the equivalent of coasting or light brake pressure, depending on the situation.

 

[Rhidan]

For a truck, I am hopeful that the Rivian will have something like "modes" that could mimic the performance of lower gears. I have never owned an auto transmission vehicle. I love the manual for mountain roads (and the manual is more fun). Will be interesting to see how Rivian handles that, and I'm actually not sure how current BEVs handle that. For a hill descent, I guess you could use a cruise control function to apply the proper amount of regen or braking to maintain a constant speed. For off-roading or hill climb, I would want to be able to have more control over a crawl speed, where pushing the accelerator doesn't launch me 0 to 60 in 3 seconds.

If these "modes" exist, I would prefer to have a manual switch, like moving a stalk or a paddle, rather than having to navigate a touch screen to change the driving performance on the fly.

 

[azbill]

What I think I'm really getting at is as to why anyone would ever want less than the "heaviest" regen all the time because I think that experienced drivers want the most they can get always. I suspect there is a "learning curve" issue hidden in here somewhere.

For me, I switch my Bolt to Drive when on the freeways. When I hit the exit ramp I let off the pedal and like to have mild regen, gradully slowing, like I would with an ICE vehicle. As I near the stop sign or light, I shift to one pedal and can stop the car without using brakes. so, no I do not always want max regen.

 

[Shzeph]

ajdelange is a troll.

Yeah. No normal person would conflate “paddles” and “stalks”, especially when the OP clearly posted a picture with ACTUAL PADDLES right there in the initial post.

And only the truly insane (or pedantic) would ever call stalks “horizontally mounted joysticks”

 

[ajdelange]

I guess I need to explain how one pedal driving works. To accelerate you press the pedal towars the "fire" wall. To decelerate you let it off a bit. Just as the amount of acceleration depends on how far you push the pedal in the amount of deceleration depends on how far you back it off relative to the "neutral point". At the neutral point you are still pressing the pedal but there is no torque being applied to the wheels and none being absorbed from them. The power meter reads 0. To "brake" you let the pedal move back further and the regen commences with vigor depending on how far back you let the pedal move. Only when your foot is completely off is "full" regen applied. You will find you have no problem in snow because even in full regen the anti-skid system won't absorb torque to the extent that slip occurs.

My personal experience with the system in the Tesla that I always wish regen would accelerate the car more when I take my foot off the pedal completely. Thus I don't know why people would want to reduce that maximum.

This all may be confusing to someone who hasn't experienced one pedal driving. It is a paradigm shift for sure.

 

[ajdelange]

For me, I switch my Bolt to Drive when on the freeways. When I hit the exit ramp I let off the pedal and like to have mild regen, gradully slowing, like I would with an ICE vehicle.

In the Tesla that is done by releasing a little pedal pressure - as much as you want for the amount of slowing you want.

As I near the stop sign or light, I shift to one pedal and can stop the car without using brakes. so, no I do not always want max regen.

In the Tesla you wouldn't shift (you can't) but rather just let off more pressure to the point where the car comes to a full stop.

So I guess the question is as to why you prefer to do it in two stages instead of one? Or maybe you don't. Perhaps that is imposed by the Bolt's architecture?

 

[ajdelange]

For a truck, I am hopeful that the Rivian will have something like "modes" that could mimic the performance of lower gears. I have never owned an auto transmission vehicle. I love the manual for mountain roads (and the manual is more fun).

I'm afraid you will be giving that all up along with the throaty roar of a reciprocating engine under load. Electrics are entirely different. They have flat (or nearly flat) torque curves from 0 rpm up to their power limit.

Given the feelings you have expressed I strongly recommend that you arrange to test drive a BEV as soon as possible. The BEV provides its own flavor of thrill but it is not what you are used to. I think you will like it but best to be sure now rather than experience disappointment later.

Will be interesting to see how Rivian handles that, and I'm actually not sure how current BEVs handle that.

They don't because it isn't a factor that a BEV needs to consider.

For a hill descent, I guess you could use a cruise control function to apply the proper amount of regen or braking to maintain a constant speed.

That's exactly what they do. Cruise control does exactly what I described in the earlier post except that it does it automatically. If it sees speed increasing above the set point it moves the stator field relative to the rotor such that more current is generated, more charge sent to the battery and more torque absorbed. The vehicle slows. If it cannot absorb enough torque electrically through the motor it will bring the friction brakes into play. And conversely if it senses speed less than the set point. Note that you get to monitor what it is doing by watching the power meter.

For off-roading or hill climb, I would want to be able to have more control over a crawl speed, where pushing the accelerator doesn't launch me 0 to 60 in 3 seconds.

People pay the big bucks for the ability to push the truck from 0 to 60 in three seconds so the torque/power are there. Tesla had a "timid" setting (that isn't the right word) for beginners and I'd be surprised if Rivian doesn't have that too. But as for a "crawl" mode I think that's desirable too and when I speak of the 2 DOF tank mode I envision pushing those to sliders to the max producing a couple of mph - no more.

If these "modes" exist, I would prefer to have a manual switch, like moving a stalk or a paddle, rather than having to navigate a touch screen to change the driving performance on the fly.

It's a trade space. The more knobs, buttons and levers, the more convenient the MMI but the more cluttered. But there is a limit. I have a Lexus SUV that has so many buttons that I have to get out the manual to figure out where the damn button is in the car in some cases.

 

[ElectricDan]

I'm afraid you will be giving that all up along with the throaty roar of a reciprocating engine under load. Electrics are entirely different. They have flat (or nearly flat) torque curves from 0 rpm up to their power limit.

Given the feelings you have expressed I strongly recommend that you arrange to test drive a BEV as soon as possible. The BEV provides its own flavor of thrill but it is not what you are used to. I think you will like it but best to be sure now rather than experience disappointment later.

They don't because it isn't a factor that a BEV needs to consider.

That's exactly what they do. Cruise control does exactly what I described in the earlier post except that it does it automatically. If it sees speed increasing above the set point it moves the stator field relative to the rotor such that more current is generated, more charge sent to the battery and more torque absorbed. The vehicle slows. If it cannot absorb enough torque electrically through the motor it will bring the friction brakes into play.

People pay the big bucks for the ability to push the truck from 0 to 60 in three seconds so the torque/power are there. Tesla had a "timid" setting (that isn't the right word) for beginners and I'd be surprised if Rivian doesn't have that too. But as for a "crawl" mode I think that's desirable too and when I speak of the 2 DOF tank mode I envision pushing those to sliders to the max producing a couple of mph - no more.


It's a trade space. The more knobs, buttons and levers, the more convenient the MMI but the more cluttered. But there is a limit. I have a Lexus SUV that has so many buttons that I have to get out the manual to figure out where the damn button is in the car in some cases.

I dont believe you understand the hill descent or desire for different modes as to how it relates to an offroad vehicle. You should look up hill descent technology for jeeps to get a grasp on what he's talking about.

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