Out of Spec review on 500A charging

[SeaGeo]

Yeah, only amateurs release software updates to their charging curve after product delivery...

https://electrek.co/2019/06/21/tesla-model-3-supercharging-faster-software-update/

https://www.slashgear.com/polestar-2-ota-update-improves-range-charging-and-adds-v2v-safety-25661246



https://www.vwidtalk.com/threads/faster-dc-fast-charging-ota-update-this-year.1572/

The level of refinement that is still needed is what I think @aAlpine was referencing. I don't think anybody is assuming they have will have it flawless out of the gate. Speaking for aAlpine, it seems a little weird that the logic for managing thermals while charging seems to be entirely reactionary. I am sure Rivian has put a lot of effort into managing the thermals of the batteries, so why isn't it showing up at all in the charging behavior?

The ID.3 example you used was an improvement to a charging curve that's already more aggressive than the R1T's (relative to battery size). And the ID.3 (and ID.4) came out with a pretty rock solid curve in moderate to hot weather. If it's above 50 or 60 degrees I reliably replicate the curves that others have published. It's not like the car was unable to maintain charging speeds. They just started out with a rock solid conservative curve and pushed it higher.

I don't remember seeing or hearing about another car that Kyle (or others) has had so much difficulty being able to pull what I refer to as the backbone charging curve. I've yet to see anyone successfully charge the R1T from a low SOC to 80% without it throttling for whatever reason on either software. Think about it, he had to split the charging curve into 8 different sessions to let the thermals catch up (likely cool off). Go back and watch the video, he was having to unplug it ever ~5 to 10% in the middle of the pack because it was throttling.

The e-gmp cars are probably the closest example, but they're also pushing the batteries to another level and when they run into issues it's because the cooling system can't keep up. Not that it doesn't seem to turn until the very last minute. The e-gmp cars don't currently have battery preconditioning, which obviously results in problems in the cold, but as far as he could tell Kyle the truck was getting too hot to maintain the peak charge very quickly in cool weather and the AC fans and compressor frequently only kick on after it's started throttling.

I expect them to figure it out, but given the their initial development period, then delaying production from 10 months ago to September, and then a ~4-6 month employee production run, I am just surprised they don't have thermal mapping of the charging system dialed in yet.

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[ja_kub_sz]

With Max pack you would have to worry more due to the additional time that would take to charge.

Time spent charging (smaller pack) is far greater then time not spent having to charge, because my max pack battery will be large enough that I don't have to stop to charge as much.

Being really basic here, but just like gas tank size with equal mpg's. Bigger tank stops less.

 

[ajdelange]

You’ll be stopping to replenish miles. Since max and large have same consumption both will nominally take the same time for the same miles.

Exceptions will be when taking on large charges for towing, extra range etc

 

[Denver_Paulie]

Time spent charging (smaller pack) is far greater then time not spent having to charge, because my max pack battery will be large enough that I don't have to stop to charge as much.

Being really basic here, but just like gas tank size with equal mpg's. Bigger tank stops less.

In the current environment it is not that simple since there are not the same number of high speed chargers as there are gas stations. In more remote areas that have few high speed charging locations - like Texas for instance - chargers are 150 miles apart or so.

Even with a max pack trying to go 300 miles at highway speeds in winter time is a stretch. Factor in potential bad weather or a strong headwind and that further lowers range.

Your formula only works in an environment with a high density of high speed chargers. I mean 150kW and above for speeds. I understand your train of thought, and hopefully we will get to a point one day where chargers are like gas stations.

 

[zipzag]

You’ll be stopping to replenish miles. Since max and large have same consumption both will nominally take the same time for the same miles.

Exceptions will be when taking on large charges for towing, extra range etc

With newer DCFC the larger the pack the more miles per hour if beginning at the same SOC.

 

[ja_kub_sz]

In the current environment it is not that simple since there are not the same number of high speed chargers as there are gas stations. In more remote areas that have few high speed charging locations - like Texas for instance - chargers are 150 miles apart or so.

Even with a max pack trying to go 300 miles at highway speeds in winter time is a stretch. Factor in potential bad weather or a strong headwind and that further lowers range.

Your formula only works in an environment with a high density of high speed chargers. I mean 150kW and above for speeds. I understand your train of thought, and hopefully we will get to a point one day where chargers are like gas stations.

If max pack and large pack charge the same, then fewer stops (max pack) means charge amps/times are less of an issue. I know battery level factors into the charge curve, and charger type but come on now... That's the entire point of the max pack.

Saying we'll on "this given route" you'll bypass a level 3 charger and have to stop to use a level 2 instead because you have more range with the max pack, and the large pack will come put ahead... etc... It's kinda antithetical to the entire existence of increasing pack size for EV's as a whole.

The car routes you for the least amount of time spent traveling. A max pack will greatly reduced the significance of these issue the large pack has.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

If max pack and large pack charge the same, then fewer stops (max pack) means charge amps/times are less of an issue. I know battery level factors into the charge curve, and charger type but come on now... That's the entire point of the max pack.

Saying we'll on "this given route" you'll bypass a level 3 charger and have to stop to use a level 2 instead because you have more range with the max pack, and the large pack will come put ahead... etc... It's kinda antithetical to the entire existence of increasing pack size for EV's as a whole.

The car routes you for the least amount of time spent traveling. A max pack will greatly reduced the significance of these issue the large pack has.

No worries. You will drive your truck however you feel comfortable.

If you have the patience to wait for a max pack R1T you are a better person than I am. All I know is that the large pack R1T is being built and provided to customers currently. The struggle for Rivian to do that in this current environment is challenging enough in the limited numbers being produced. Who knows when, or even if, the max pack will even be built.

I will take whatever battery size is available as quickly as possible. 225 to 250 miles on a charge is fine with me since I am not towing anything. I drove an Audi e-Tron in the past and now drive a Taycan, I am used to being resourceful when it comes to charging on road trips.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

If max pack and large pack charge the same, then fewer stops (max pack) means charge amps/times are less of an issue. I know battery level factors into the charge curve, and charger type but come on now... That's the entire point of the max pack.

eh, not necessarily.

I originally had a "Max pack or nothing" mentality. Now, I'm on the fence. Playing around with ABRP, I'm seeing that Max pack is a significant cost add, but isn't really saving me much (if any) time on long trips. Day-to-day, the Large is still enough range to not need charging except at home. And on trips, the Max isn't letting me avoid charging -- I just can go a little farther between charges. But because EVs don't charge linearly (looking at DCFC, here), it isn't simply a matter of more distance between chargers. Go watch some "canonball run" EV videos on YouTube, and they've found the optimal strategy is often NOT charging fully, and instead keeping the pack at a low SoC and just charge enough to hop to the next DCFC location that can give full beans. The charging curve that Out of Spec released (great video!) also indicates that charging to 50-60% and then driving to ~10%, rinse, repeat, gets you to your destination faster than waiting to charge to a high SoC.

The Max pack may still be "necessary" for some. If your trips happen to fall in that magical zone of "too far for a single charge on Large pack, but can be done in a single charge on Max pack" then go for it. But I would suggest keeping an open mind and really comparing the trips you will actually take, and see what the difference is.

For example, I looked at a typical "day trip" that my wife and I take. Both Max and Large would require one charge session on the road. The difference in time was only 8 minutes between the two. I'll wait 8 minutes to save $10,000!

 

[nfrank]

eh, not necessarily.

I originally had a "Max pack or nothing" mentality. Now, I'm on the fence. Playing around with ABRP, I'm seeing that Max pack is a significant cost add, but isn't really saving me much (if any) time on long trips. Day-to-day, the Large is still enough range to not need charging except at home. And on trips, the Max isn't letting me avoid charging -- I just can go a little farther between charges. But because EVs don't charge linearly (looking at DCFC, here), it isn't simply a matter of more distance between chargers. Go watch some "canonball run" EV videos on YouTube, and they've found the optimal strategy is often NOT charging fully, and instead keeping the pack at a low SoC and just charge enough to hop to the next DCFC location that can give full beans. The charging curve that Out of Spec released (great video!) also indicates that charging to 50-60% and then driving to ~10%, rinse, repeat, gets you to your destination faster than waiting to charge to a high SoC.

The Max pack may still be "necessary" for some. If your trips happen to fall in that magical zone of "too far for a single charge on Large pack, but can be done in a single charge on Max pack" then go for it. But I would suggest keeping an open mind and really comparing the trips you will actually take, and see what the difference is.

For example, I looked at a typical "day trip" that my wife and I take. Both Max and Large would require one charge session on the road. The difference in time was only 8 minutes between the two. I'll wait 8 minutes to save $10,000!

I also had your mentality, but then changed from max to large to get my truck sooner. The price hike may not be worth it, UNLESS the max pack becomes a 800V battery. That'll greatly increase the charge rate and would make the price hike worth it for me.

 

[Engi_Nerd]

The level of refinement that is still needed is what I think @aAlpine was referencing. I don't think anybody is assuming they have will have it flawless out of the gate. Speaking for aAlpine, it seems a little weird that the logic for managing thermals while charging seems to be entirely reactionary. I am sure Rivian has put a lot of effort into managing the thermals of the batteries, so why isn't it showing up at all in the charging behavior?

The ID.3 example you used was an improvement to a charging curve that's already more aggressive than the R1T's (relative to battery size). And the ID.3 (and ID.4) came out with a pretty rock solid curve in moderate to hot weather. If it's above 50 or 60 degrees I reliably replicate the curves that others have published. It's not like the car was unable to maintain charging speeds. They just started out with a rock solid conservative curve and pushed it higher.

I don't remember seeing or hearing about another car that Kyle (or others) has had so much difficulty being able to pull what I refer to as the backbone charging curve. I've yet to see anyone successfully charge the R1T from a low SOC to 80% without it throttling for whatever reason on either software. Think about it, he had to split the charging curve into 8 different sessions to let the thermals catch up (likely cool off). Go back and watch the video, he was having to unplug it ever ~5 to 10% in the middle of the pack because it was throttling.

The e-gmp cars are probably the closest example, but they're also pushing the batteries to another level and when they run into issues it's because the cooling system can't keep up. Not that it doesn't seem to turn until the very last minute. The e-gmp cars don't currently have battery preconditioning, which obviously results in problems in the cold, but as far as he could tell Kyle the truck was getting too hot to maintain the peak charge very quickly in cool weather and the AC fans and compressor frequently only kick on after it's started throttling.

I expect them to figure it out, but given the their initial development period, then delaying production from 10 months ago to September, and then a ~4-6 month employee production run, I am just surprised they don't have thermal mapping of the charging system dialed in yet.

I was/am a bit confused by how Kyle's test method of breaking the charge curve up into chunks to get the theoretical max rate at every SoC is helpful to owners, who will never use it this way. I just want to know the total time it will take to get me from 10 to 80, in a range of ambient temps and at a range of chargers. This is why Bjorn's 1000 km challenge is such a strong test method. The thermal management system is more important than the max charge rate for this, but is more or less being completely ignored.

I am personally a bit worried given how simplistically it's currently operating and how long they've been developing it. I'm obviously hopeful it can be improved and Rivian seems totally committed to rapidly progressing, but spending $80K assuming rainbows and unicorns seems sketchy. Saying "oh they just need to cool it more" leads one to ask, if it is so easy, why was it deployed this way? Perhaps their schedule required starting simple and conservatively and learning as they go using fleet data. Or perhaps there's a physical limitation somewhere in the system, such as the thermal interface between batteries and coolant. No way to know yet.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I was/am a bit confused by how Kyle's test method of breaking the charge curve up into chunks to get the theoretical max rate at every SoC is helpful to owners, who will never use it this way. I just want to know the total time it will take to get me from 10 to 80, in a range of ambient temps and at a range of chargers

Both tests are useful and valid.

Knowing the theoretical best-case is good. Knowing what is practical in your environment is also good.

 

[SeaGeo]

I was/am a bit confused by how Kyle's test method of breaking the charge curve up into chunks to get the theoretical max rate at every SoC is helpful to owners, who will never use it this way. I just want to know the total time it will take to get me from 10 to 80, in a range of ambient temps and at a range of chargers. This why Bjorn's 1000 km challenge is such a strong test method. The thermal management system is more important than the max charge rate for this, but is more or less being completely ignored.

I am personally a bit worried given how simplistically it's currently operating and how long they've been developing it. I'm obviously hopeful it can be improved and Rivian seems totally committed to rapidly progressing, but spending $80K assuming rainbows and unicorns seems sketchy. Saying "oh they just need to cool it more" leads one to ask why, if it is so easy, why was it deployed this way? Perhaps their schedule required starting simple and conservatively and learning as they go using fleet data. Or perhaps there's a physical limitation somewhere in the system, such as the thermal interface between batteries and coolant. No way to know yet.

His goal is to give you an idea of what the best charging curve you could get from the vehicle is in one test. Frequently it'll be less than that, especially with the Rivian at the moment. I think the general assumption is that they have a software.... issue with the thermal management, but that may not be the case.

The other part is that with his testing approaches you get an idea of what the best speeds should be at any given point (unless you have some unusual logic like the Mach e). So you have a good idea of when you have no chance of getting 200+ kw by Soc. On many cars in decent conditions you can reliably get that (like the ID.4). Time will tell with the R1T. Rivian's benchmark of 140 miles/20 minutes necessitates pulling an average of at least about 180kw over about 45% of the battery, so they're going to have to get the thermals under control either way.

Bjorn does a very similar X to 100% test (I think he does 10%). The R1T just has such difficulty managing the temperatures at the moment that Kyle had to plug and unplug it a lot. Which is literally a first that I am aware of.

As @CommodoreAmiga noted, it's just two different approaches to testing. I find Kyle's more valuable personally for troubleshooting, but getting a large dataset over many chargers is really valuable as well.

 

[RivianXpress]

After driving my M3 from CA to Utah yesterday - with the cruise set on 90mph - I have to say we need a quicker rollout of the RAN chargers!

The damn Tesla Superchargers make things sooo easy (and cheap -averaged 0.32/kW). Almost 800 mile trip, charged up when I got here and spent only $68 in charging $.

I'm really going to miss these Superchargers (and the M3 efficiency) when I sell my M3 and get my R1T in the next couple of months. But I will enjoy the fact I can haul my dirt bike to Moab!

 

[ja_kub_sz]

eh, not necessarily.

I originally had a "Max pack or nothing" mentality. Now, I'm on the fence. Playing around with ABRP, I'm seeing that Max pack is a significant cost add, but isn't really saving me much (if any) time on long trips. Day-to-day, the Large is still enough range to not need charging except at home. And on trips, the Max isn't letting me avoid charging -- I just can go a little farther between charges. But because EVs don't charge linearly (looking at DCFC, here), it isn't simply a matter of more distance between chargers. Go watch some "canonball run" EV videos on YouTube, and they've found the optimal strategy is often NOT charging fully, and instead keeping the pack at a low SoC and just charge enough to hop to the next DCFC location that can give full beans. The charging curve that Out of Spec released (great video!) also indicates that charging to 50-60% and then driving to ~10%, rinse, repeat, gets you to your destination faster than waiting to charge to a high SoC.

The Max pack may still be "necessary" for some. If your trips happen to fall in that magical zone of "too far for a single charge on Large pack, but can be done in a single charge on Max pack" then go for it. But I would suggest keeping an open mind and really comparing the trips you will actually take, and see what the difference is.

For example, I looked at a typical "day trip" that my wife and I take. Both Max and Large would require one charge session on the road. The difference in time was only 8 minutes between the two. I'll wait 8 minutes to save $10,000!

Again... I've made plenty of mistakes (RIVN stock ) but making multiple pretty orders was probably the only smart thing I've done so far.

Per CS "looking good" for a "June delivery", but gonna get my Large pack, and then see what my thoughts are, and then get my Max pack ASAP.

 

[Denver_Paulie]

After driving my M3 from CA to Utah yesterday - with the cruise set on 90mph - I have to say we need a quicker rollout of the RAN chargers!

The damn Tesla Superchargers make things sooo easy (and cheap -averaged 0.32/kW). Almost 800 mile trip, charged up when I got here and spent only $68 in charging $.

I'm really going to miss these Superchargers (and the M3 efficiency) when I sell my M3 and get my R1T in the next couple of months. But I will enjoy the fact I can haul my dirt bike to Moab!

RAN Chargers??? You will be waiting for 5 years at the minimum for them to appear in volume density. Just look at the expansion history of Tesla and Electrify America and you will see that it is not easy rolling out a charging network.

The EA charging network between California and UT is now equally as good as the Tesla network - I can say this after owning two Model S', two Model X's, an Audi e-Tron, and two different Taycan's over the past 7 years. I can do the drive from Denver to Vegas in an EV practically blindfolded at this point since I have done it so many times and in so many different EV's.

Not trying to be critical of your post, but you are not losing anything other than Plug and Charge capability when you swap your M3 to a Rivian, and drive to eastern Utah.

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