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No more mention of Lidar or Level 3 autonomous

ElectricDan

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Im a little disappointed that Rivian has removed all mentions of delivering a Level 3 autonomous capable vehicle at launch, and that the new "Driver+" system does not include lidar.

I wonder if this means Rivian is accepting that their system will only be an ADAS, or perhaps they have dropped Lidar due to price concerns, but are still pursuing autonomy. Curious to hear anyone else's thoughts on this.
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ajdelange

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LIDAR works in the NIR and water vapor absorbs these bands just as it does in the visible. IOW LIDAR doesn't see through high humidity, fog, smog etc very well. And it is expensive. Radar does work in fog etc., is cheaper and lighter etc, There are new sensors that use radar to image a field in 4D with resolution that is not as great as is attainable with LIDAR but is higher than used to be typical. Thus, you will note, that the Rivian has 5 radars (the current Teslas have one) and so I think the answer must be that Rivian has made the trade and determined that radar is the way to go.

Obviously there are lots of interesting details about which I know nothing such as what band the radars use, what their resolution in range, azimuth and elevation is, where they are located on the vehicle etc.
 

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I see the removal of Lidar as a positive. But it is one less piece of next-gen tech to drool over for those wanting the bragging rights.

The vehicle should still be L3 capable at launch, it just won't be L3 functional until some later date after a software update. They have stated this almost since the beginning.
 

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Expect Rivian's system to be similar to GM's SuperCruise or Ford's Co-Pilot360 Assist. The roads it works on will be pre-mapped so the truck doesn't need to have it's own LIDAR. This seems to be the industry standard for now, as LIDAR is reserved for Level 4 autonomy which is not yet ready for mass production. Only Tesla is taking their own approach by trying to push camera-based AI technology to its limit, and the reliability of that is not yet proven.
 

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The LIDAR is not for mapping. The maps are made by LIDAR but one mounted on a separate vehicle sent out to do the mapping. On your car it is just a sensor that is used to try to determine what the space/time surrounding the vehicle looks like. It's advantage over radar/optical is that it is possible to measure the 4 coordinates very precisely.
 

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I am very dissapointed that the description of Driver+ is quite different than the original vision. Maybe lawyers were involved.

I was excited that Rivian's original vision of level 3 was "we want people to share photos and reliving experiences all while driving". Now they are making it sound like all the rest except Tesla. Keep your attention on the road, dont use your phone, etc.

Tesla Autopilot has its own issues but I find it quite satisfactory, even on divided highways, not just interstate. Driver+ sounds just like GM SuperCruise - only on mapped and "approved" highways. I dont like the Tesla Autopilot periodic "nag" but it is tolerable and you can use it anywhere.

I have not seen or heard anything about exactly, specifically, how Driver+ will work.
 

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It's evidently going to be a geofenced system using radar (5 of them) in place of LIDAR for environment evaluation. Presumably, the area in which it is usable will grow as real world data is collected by the fleet.
 
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ElectricDan

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It's evidently going to be a geofenced system using radar (5 of them) in place of LIDAR for environment evaluation. Presumably, the area in which it is usable will grow as real world data is collected by the fleet.
My focus is on the desired outcome, and not how they achieve it. If rivian can provide a non-geofenced level 3 system, with only camera and radar, im all the happier.

My concern is rivian isn't changing sensors to achieve the same goal, I think rivian is changing goals and changing sensors. That is my issue with this.
 

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Sorry for the delay in responding to this discussion.

In talking with RJ last year at the Overland West event at Flagstaff the Level 3 Autonomy was an add-on. I followed up with the Rivian team at the SF event earlier this year and the same message was conveyed to me. they have time to make that an option when the R1T and R1s start delivery...maybe that will be another option as we get closer.
 
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ElectricDan

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Sorry for the delay in responding to this discussion.

In talking with RJ last year at the Overland West event at Flagstaff the Level 3 Autonomy was an add-on. I followed up with the Rivian team at the SF event earlier this year and the same message was conveyed to me. they have time to make that an option when the R1T and R1s start delivery...maybe that will be another option as we get closer.
When you say add on and option I assume you are referring to an additional cost to the end user?
 
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Lmirafuente

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When you say add on and option I assume you are referring to an additional cost to the end user?
Yes, it was clear to me it was at an additional cost. It was physical hardware to add... not just a software upgrade.

I should clarify my original statement. RJ made it clear that the level of autonomy we will have is very high functioning. The add-on hardware will be a solid Level 3 or higher functioning Level4.

He did state the competition currently being sold today is high functioning Level 2 and depending on the manufacture, some level 3. He also stated that for Level 4 or Level 5 cars will need to be aware of each other.
 
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Mr. Sparkle

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Yes, it was clear to me it was at an additional cost. It was physical hardware to add... not just a software upgrade.

I should clarify my original statement. RJ made it clear that the level of autonomy we will have is very high functioning. The add-on hardware will be a solid Level 3 or higher functioning Level4.

He did state the competition currently being sold today is high functioning Level 2 and depending on the manufacture, some level 3. He also stated that for Level 4 or Level 5 cars will need to be aware of each other.
Thanks for this insight; I also had wondered about the status of LIDAR on the Rivian. This seems like a reasonable approach. I note that Lucid, on their Air configurator, includes the "Dream Drive Level 3" package as standard on the Air Dream and Grand Touring models, both of which are substantially more expensive than any Rivian. However, it is listed as optional on the Touring model and not listed at all for the least expensive variant, the Pure.

So, it looks like Lucid is going to make Level 3 hardware optional on their sub-$100k model and possibly not available at all on their base model. I assume the lesser models will get a Level 2 system similar to Driver+ as standard equipment. I am pleased that Rivian is not going to charge a subscription fee to access and update Driver+, unlike GM's Super Cruise and Ford's upcoming and ponderously named Co-Pilot 360 Active 2.0 systems.
 

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I asked about Level 3 autonomy and the reason for the removal of the lidar on the Rivian chat with the customer support people and was told by the person (don't remember their name), but they did confirm that it is still level 3 ready (hardware wise) and that eventually when enough data is gathered both from drivers driving the roads and from the road mapping, it will be turned on. They said that it is as originally advertised, Level 3 ready, not that it would be out the factory turned on. and as far why no more lidar they said that with their testing they came to the conclusion that there was no need for the lidar. I assume that they came to the same realization that tesla came to, Elon has said numerous times that lidar is not needed on cars, there is no significant gain with it. The cost is still too high and as it gets cheaper and cheaper camera tech and radar tech becomes better and better while still being much more cheaper than lidar.
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