My shopping adventure: Rivian vs F150 Lightning

Sgt Beavis

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So I'm here going back and forth on either an R1T or an F150 Lightning. I've done some pricing work below. As you can see, even the R1T Explore pkg. compares VERY favorably to the Lariat trim. With the Lariat, you have to add $7000 to get 300miles of range. So I've pretty much eliminated that from consideration. If I get a Lightning, it'll be an XLT+. Based on Ford's customer survey, that should come in at $4000 less than an R1T with the Explorer pkg. Again, the R1T is much better equipped.

Just going back and forth in my mind on this and documenting it here. Feel free to chime in. I'll be editing this as I gather more info. I need to decide soon as the F150 Lightning's order bank is opening next week.

Lightning Pro/Con:
Pros:
  1. Larger vehicle with more bed and cab space. Some will see this as a negative but, for me, bigger is better.
  2. Potentially longer range with extended battery. I base this off Ford's claim they are rating their EV with 1000lbs of cargo and a passenger.
  3. Massive, and easier to access Frunk. Also a lot of outlets both front and back.
  4. Home power backup.
  5. Very large Ford service network. Three near me that are ready for EV servicing.
  6. I have a very early reservation and would be likely to take delivery early.
  7. XLT and XLT+ trims bring a lot of value.
  8. Tailgate step (I have bad knees..)
  9. Large flat space under the rear seats.
  10. Extended Range battery comes with an 80amp home charger
  11. XLT+ has physical HVAC and Audio buttons (lariat has a 15" screen with no buttons)
  12. Dual glove boxes.
Cons
  1. Not an, out of the box, off road vehicle. Lower ground clearance. No air suspension.
  2. Ford Dealer network.
  3. Lariat trim is $10K more than the XLT+ and doesn't give enough value, to me, to justify the cost.
  4. Blue Cruise is cheap, but not very capable. Also only available on the Lariat
  5. Lower Horsepower and torque than the Rivian (but still very good)
R1T Pro/Con
Pros:
  1. Base model has 300+ range for the about the same price as the Lariat with less range (Ford's extended range battery costs an extra $7000)
  2. Base model is MUCH better equipped than the Lariat.
    1. Air Compressor (basic ARB compressor is about $400)
    2. Standard Tonneau cover (Rollup Tonneau covers can be an extra $1000)
    3. Doesn't appear to need a spray in Berliner (extra $400)
    4. BT Speaker (not a 'need' for me but still very cool)
    5. Flashlight (just good thinking there)
  3. MOAR POWA!! Geez this thing is a beast.
  4. Air suspension is standard.
  5. Novel storage options. (the tunnel is kick ass)
  6. Crossbar option is going to be very useful to me. (really, everyone should do that)
  7. Faster Charging
  8. MASSIVE Brembo Brakes
Cons:
  1. $1800 for AT tires and 20s is a rip off. $800 for a spare is as well.
  2. $2000 off road package is overpriced as well.
  3. Paint options are excessive too.
  4. Wall charger is extra
  5. Service network will be limited for a while (but I like their plans)
  6. Ordering today means waiting until late 2022 or early 2023 (fingers crossed)
  7. $550 a year subscription service (not yet sure this brings enough value to me)
  8. $10000 self driving that is very limited in its capabilities.
  9. TINY bed.
  10. Questionable wheel and tire choice for ATs. (20" wheels with 34" Scorpions)
  11. I haven't ridden in or driven one.
  12. No CarPlay (seriously, WTF.. at least give me Waze)
  13. No physical buttons for HVAC or Audio.
  14. No glovebox

Rivian R1T
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Ford F150 Lightning
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roth_nj

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ive been waiting to see this... talking with coworkers comparing the riv to the lightening - the "much cheaper price" is one of the first thing brought up
 

Trandall

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ive been waiting to see this... talking with coworkers comparing the riv to the lightening - the "much cheaper price" is one of the first thing brought up
Which one is believed to be "much Cheper"? I think you have to at least compare the larger range F-150 in something other than the Pro trim to get a fair assesment. F-150 is cheaper on the bottom trim and more expensive on the top trim if I'm not mistaken. To me the cost difference is relatively small and could be debated either way depending on perspective.
 
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Sgt Beavis

Sgt Beavis

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Which one is believed to be "much Cheper"? I think you have to at least compare the larger range F-150 in something other than the Pro trim to get a fair assesment. F-150 is cheaper on the bottom trim and more expensive on the top trim if I'm not mistaken. To me the cost difference is relatively small and could be debated either way depending on perspective.
The Pro, XLT, and XLT+ are all cheaper. Even with the extended range battery, the XLT+ is $4000 cheaper.

However, the basic Lariat (with less range) is about the same price as the Rivian R1T Explorer. It makes the Lariat seem like a ripoff.
 

roth_nj

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Which one is believed to be "much Cheper"? I think you have to at least compare the larger range F-150 in something other than the Pro trim to get a fair assesment. F-150 is cheaper on the bottom trim and more expensive on the top trim if I'm not mistaken. To me the cost difference is relatively small and could be debated either way depending on perspective.

i know what you mean because i've been invested in finding and learning that information

but i meant for people on the other side, just seeing/hearing this " MSRP starting at $39,974 " and then giving you the WFT you want to spend 70-80K on an start up
 

jjswan33

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Interesting comparison. I am not surprised a reasonably equipped F150 brings the price up quite a bit.

Of course the big unknown here is going to be what happens with the EV tax credits in 2022. If the dems follow their most recent proposal you would get 12,500 credit with your lower priced F150 trim and 7500 with your lowest priced R1T but nothing on your higher spec'd trims.
 
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Sgt Beavis

Sgt Beavis

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Interesting comparison. I am not surprised a reasonably equipped F150 brings the price up quite a bit.

Of course the big unknown here is going to be what happens with the EV tax credits in 2022. If the dems follow their most recent proposal you would get 12,500 credit with your lower priced F150 trim and 7500 with your lowest priced R1T but nothing on your higher spec'd trims.
Additionally, one of the proposals limits the price of the vehicle to $74000. That pushed the Lariat extended range completely out of the credit.

I've got my fingers crossed that the Union proposal gets dropped. I have zero problems with unions but that is anti-competitive.
 

Sdvictor

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The Pro, XLT, and XLT+ are all cheaper. Even with the extended range battery, the XLT+ is $4000 cheaper.

However, the basic Lariat (with less range) is about the same price as the Rivian R1T Explorer. It makes the Lariat seem like a ripoff.
First of all, thanks for the comparison. I believe that XLT + Premium still misses the larger center display, and it misses the moonroof. It's crazy how even the base lariat misses Bluecruise (Which will likely be 19.99/month), and extended battery.

In that sense, the pricing ends up at near parity starting at the XLT+Premium (yes, it is 4k cheaper), but it's really a stripper model while the R1T explore is pretty well loaded even as a base model. At around the Lariat + extended range and Lariat +Premium extended battery is basically equiv to a base R1T adventure.

That said, they're both going to be great trucks. I guess it comes down to what your overall desired lifestyle is.

Edit: My commercial construction friend (they do 100m-700m construction projects here in seattle) ordered a few dozen Ligthnings. All of the guys are excited about and equally split on the R1T and lightning for personal vehicles, with the R1T going to more outdoors/offroader folks while the lightning going towards the more farm/ultilty folks. He jokes that only 1 dude is interested in the Cybertruck and everyone thinks he's weird for it.
 
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Trandall

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It seems crazy that next year Ford plans to sell a BEV F-150 for cheaper than a base Tesla Model 3 even before the tax incentives. I would rather have the Lightning Pro than the standard range Model 3.
 

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It seems that you have it listed pretty well.
I'd just add to the list that Rivian will be probably charging faster on the road.

According that that:
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/05/24/all-electric-f-150-lightning-pro.html

Ford will charge at 150 kW and do 65% (195 miles) in 41 minutes for extended range battery.
Rivian will do 140 miles in 20 minutes and have peak charge rate > 200 kW. Not sure of course what the charging curve looks like, but I think it's a safe bet that Rivian in general will charge faster.
 
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Sgt Beavis

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It seems that you have it listed pretty well.
I'd just add to the list that Rivian will be probably charging faster on the road.

According that that:
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/05/24/all-electric-f-150-lightning-pro.html

Ford will charge at 150 kW and do 65% (195 miles) in 41 minutes for extended range battery.
Rivian will do 140 miles in 20 minutes and have peak charge rate > 200 kW. Not sure of course what the charging curve looks like, but I think it's a safe bet that Rivian in general will charge faster.
Added to the list
 

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The RAN locations will add significant value for my use case. YMMV
 

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How much is the value add for Rivian’s kinetic suspension? $10k? I think Rivian’s (McLaren) suspension is the secret sauce to the R1’s and something the Lightning can’t compare with. I spoke at length last week to my Ford dealer. The GM was pretty open about how little Ford is telling dealers, how they (dealers & Ford) have their hands full right now with the Bronco & Mavericks. I asked about V2H, any estimates on cost? He said, no idea yet, but heard of $2-3k with auto switch over, inverter, etc. With all this, I like the Lightning but for my needs I’m going to give Rivian a shot and cancelled my Lightning reservation.
 

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On your list I'm not sure if you're trying to balance against each other, but a lot of your Rivian cons for example would apply to both.

> $1800 for AT tires and 20s is a rip off. $800 for a spare is as well.
Seems high but depends on quality I guess, I see ford 18->20 as $1395 so is "close"

> $2000 off road package is overpriced as well.
Probably true but there might not be a comparable option if you need it, and if you don't then is a wash.

> Paint options are excessive too.
Agree they are high in comparison, but wash if you want silver or white.

> Wall charger is extra
Same for Ford? Mobile charger/nema-1450 is different than a hard wired charger, and $500 for Rivian's is comparable or even low compared to other ESVE's. Unless Ford was including a hard wired ESVE, but the Mach-E doesn't.

> Ordering today means waiting until late 2022 or early 2023 (fingers crossed)
Likely similar or worse for Ford?

> $550 a year subscription service (not yet sure this brings enough value to me)
Yeah don't know what this is yet or that Ford won't do something similar. Another one of those things that we probably don't need so a wash.

> $10000 self driving that is very limited in its capabilities.
Also no equivalent in Ford but also something that doesn't make sense buying for a Tesla let alone a new entry.

> I haven't ridden in or driven one.
Similar con for Ford?
 
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Sgt Beavis

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Good conversation here....

> $1800 for AT tires and 20s is a rip off. $800 for a spare is as well.
Seems high but depends on quality I guess, I see ford 18->20 as $1395 so is "close"
Ford's AT tire option is currently showing $150. This is based on the customer pricing survey so it could change. Also, a full sized spare tire is standard.

> $2000 off road package is overpriced as well.
Probably true but there might not be a comparable option if you need it, and if you don't then is a wash.
Yea, I'm mainly going off my experience with skid plates for Jeeps and trucks. Usually you're looking at something around $1000 to $1500, depending on the brand. Tow hooks are cheap.

> Paint options are excessive too.
Agree they are high in comparison, but wash if you want silver or white.
True..

> Wall charger is extra
Same for Ford? Mobile charger/nema-1450 is different than a hard wired charger, and $500 for Rivian's is comparable or even low compared to other ESVE's. Unless Ford was including a hard wired ESVE, but the Mach-E doesn't.
Ford is including their 80amp charger when you get the extended range battery. Of course you're spending $7000 for the extend range battery.

> Ordering today means waiting until late 2022 or early 2023 (fingers crossed)
Likely similar or worse for Ford?
Ford is saying deliveries start this spring. I'm speculating that my early reservation could become a spring delivery. Of course, Ford could botch the launch like they recently did with the Bronco and Explorer.

> $550 a year subscription service (not yet sure this brings enough value to me)
Yeah don't know what this is yet or that Ford won't do something similar. Another one of those things that we probably don't need so a wash.
True. Though Ford hasn't indicated anything at this Tim.

> $10000 self driving that is very limited in its capabilities.
Also no equivalent in Ford but also something that doesn't make sense buying for a Tesla let alone a new entry.
Blue Cruise is Ford's self driving service. It's a $2000 option but you have to get a Lariat. I don't know how good it is but Sandy Munro got to drive with it on the Mach E. He noted that it cannot change lanes and cannot even drive around a anything more than a slight curve. Personally, this issue is a wash for me. Self driving is not ready for prime time and not worth $10000 to me. I hope they get it right at some point. When I'm an old man, I'll be happy to have my truck drive me around.

> I haven't ridden in or driven one.
Similar con for Ford?
No, I've ridden in an F150 Lightning. I've also got a lot of experience with Ford trucks. My last truck was a Raptor. That truck was a kick in the pants but the Lightning would blow the doors off of it,,,,, except when off roading.
 
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