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Calvin2518

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Typically you want hard facts...and hard facts say that isn't true.

And now anecdotal "feels" are what you are citing?
There's a lot of evidence that the Gen 2's extra torque launches it harder with notably faster 0-60 times.

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There's a lot of evidence that the Gen 2's extra torque launches it harder with notably faster 0-60 times.

DE6403BB-4C3D-4C86-AD86-0804BDE68262_1_105_c.jpeg
How much faster? I thought it was a tenth or two? I suppose maybe that is "significantly".

Again...throttle mapping and power delivery curves play lots of mind tricks on "launches harder". Also note that Launch Mode is comming to G1 QM at some point and that may change that "butt dyno" stuff.

I had a rental Chevy that Rivian provided recently...some Chevy 4wd econo suv. As I left lot I said....this thing has torque...and then figured out the tuning was such that it had about 95% power at 50% throttle.
 

Calvin2518

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How much faster? I thought it was a tenth or two? I suppose maybe that is "significantly".

Again...throttle mapping and power delivery curves play lots of mind tricks on "launches harder". Also note that Launch Mode is comming to G1 QM at some point and that may change that "butt dyno" stuff.

I had a rental Chevy that Rivian provided recently...some Chevy 4wd econo suv. As I left lot I said....this thing has torque...and then figured out the tuning was such that it had about 95% power at 50% throttle.
"butt dyno" 😂 that's AMAZING. Okay, I'm definitely going to steal that and also going off my own butt dyno lol. That's all the evidence I have, it is quicker, and I'm excited to see the Gen 1's get launch mode too and see what they can do - and agreed that a tenth or two isn't super significant, but I think, according to my well-calibrated butt dyno, it's noticeable.
 

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"butt dyno" 😂 that's AMAZING. Okay, I'm definitely going to steal that and also going off my own butt dyno lol. That's all the evidence I have, it is quicker, and I'm excited to see the Gen 1's get launch mode too and see what they can do - and agreed that a tenth or two isn't super significant, but I think, according to my well-calibrated butt dyno, it's noticeable.
Butt Dyno has been a long standing favorite of mine! And I do get it...G2 Tri is feeling faster to people who have both. I am just noting feeling and butt dynos can be very tricky...
 

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Somehow I got through life up till now with just 200hp, and all of a sudden I need 850hp?! Sure, it’s great fun but totally not necessary for me nor 90% of Rivian owners.

I do, however, love the torque vectoring of the Quad. My main issue is traction while traversing the ice/snow covered passes of the North Cascades. Quad handles those conditions better than anything I’ve ever driven. Feels totally solid w/out ever that moment of panic when you feel a wheel slip. Likely Dual and Tri would do well too, but I’m going to keep believing the Quad is magic!

For me, the Gen 2 Quad would 100% be about bragging rights. You just don’t get that with the Tri, but even so Gen 2 Quad owners won’t sleep well at night knowing at any time a Cybertruck could blow right by them 😀
Exactly. I've been saying the same thing over and over again for a long time.....even a base dual motor has far more performance than anyone really needs for a street vehicle. Personally, I think that a range/performance balance should favor range because performance just really doesn't matter anymore after you get to a certain point. I learned that long ago with some of my modified ICE vehicles. Once you get past about 350 - 400 HP or so, you already have more performance than you'd ever need out on the road because 99% of the other drivers on the roads simply don't drive in a way that you can't do whatever you want when it comes to squirting through traffic, passing on a highway, etc... So at some point, more power simply becomes overkill and unnecessary. But for whatever reason, I still see people pushing ICE vehicles to 1,000 HP and beyond. It wasn't long ago that 1,000 HP was the benchmark for modifying ICE vehicles and now even that number isn't eye opening anymore. There are several cars now (both ICE and EV) that come with 1,000 HP from the factory. People are now modding cars to make far more power than that and it's really pretty much pointless for a street vehicle other than for bragging rights.
 

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I had a rental Chevy that Rivian provided recently...some Chevy 4wd econo suv. As I left lot I said....this thing has torque...and then figured out the tuning was such that it had about 95% power at 50% throttle.
My young cousin just got her first car...a new Chevy Trailblazer RS that has a 3-cylinder turbo engine. The stats on it are very tame, but I got a chance to drive it and was absolutely shocked how it felt on the road. The turbo on that little engine is obviously designed to provide low-end torque and the throttle mapping is probably what you said---mostly probably close to wide open throttle at maybe 50 to 70% of the accelerator pedal, so it makes the vehicle feel pretty effortless to drive, even when accelerating. It was not at all what I was expecting from such a modestly powered vehicle, but it's performance is more than adequate on the highway or around town.
 

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My young cousin just got her first car...a new Chevy Trailblazer RS that has a 3-cylinder turbo engine. The stats on it are very tame, but I got a chance to drive it and was absolutely shocked how it felt on the road. The turbo on that little engine is obviously designed to provide low-end torque and the throttle mapping is probably what you said---mostly probably close to wide open throttle at maybe 50 to 70% of the accelerator pedal, so it makes the vehicle feel pretty effortless to drive, even when accelerating. It was not at all what I was expecting from such a modestly powered vehicle, but it's performance is more than adequate on the highway or around town.
I think that was it! I looked up at time and it was a turbo 3 cylinder. I was honestly impressed with it for the money.
 

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There's a lot of evidence that the Gen 2's extra torque launches it harder with notably faster 0-60 times.

DE6403BB-4C3D-4C86-AD86-0804BDE68262_1_105_c.jpeg
My Gen1 isn't consistent here. Occasionally I'll get an exceptionally hard launch, but it's never when I'm doing the hard brake/hard accel thing. Somehow the computer is tricked into going immediately to 100% versus the quick ramp to it, have not been able to do it repeatably. First few times, I thought someone rear-ended me at the exact time the vehicle started moving. If the real "launch mode" can reproduce this, it'll definitely be faster than 3s to 60.
 

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Tell me you haven't wheeled it much without telling me you haven't wheeled it much. Fly two wheels and it won't go anywhere...very common situation on a rocky trail. Gen1 motors also have lower stall torque and overheat easily on obstacles. It still does well in a lot of situations, but it also falls flat on its face in situations where a traditional 4WD system with lockers would dominate...this is indisputable and well-documented on this forum and elsewhere. Even the dual-motor Cybertruck with its lockers front and rear does better in those situations than a Gen1 Quad. Rivian probably could have tuned the drivetrain a bit better for those situations, but now they never will, and it would still be a reactive system vs lockers.

There are a lot of people. Many of which I've wheeled with... who will disagree with you. It's not been 'well documented.' It's been narrative and hearsay. But no one's posted a video of a Rivian 'falling flat on its face.' There have been a handful of videos of people trying to drive like they knew what they were doing, but 1- weren't aired down 2- were trying to go fast to overcome obstacles and 3- had terrible lines to begin with.

FWIW: I've taken now three professionally run off-road classes. (I'm not professing to be an expert; I need more seat time--that's not my point):
The instructors. Guys with spec modded Jeeps who've been doing this for 30+ years and don't miss a weekend in the mud have been impressed with these vehicles and honestly have had nothing bad to say about them. Our biggest limitations are with approach, departure, and breakover angles. NOT ONCE did I ever hear any of them say "man, I wish you had lockers." If you're having trouble negotiating an obstacle you're either 1- negotiating a completely inappropriate obstacle or 2- you don't actually know what you're doing.

It'd be akin to taking a fully modded jeep to one of those purpose built rock crawling courses (you know the ones, with the boulders bigger than a school bus and near 90 degree cliff faces) and expecting it to perform. That's just inane--it's not what it was meant to do.

Verily, if someone tells you 'their' vehicle or 'their' setup is the 'best' off-roader, you need to ask more questions. Because it'll come down to the VERY specific thing you want it to do better than something else. Fact is: as a general ALL AROUND vehicle, these things are pretty un-beatable in factory form.

You can argue. And I'm sure you will. But it's just rhetoric.
 

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There are a lot of people. Many of which I've wheeled with... who will disagree with you. It's not been 'well documented.' It's been narrative and hearsay. But no one's posted a video of a Rivian 'falling flat on its face.' There have been a handful of videos of people trying to drive like they knew what they were doing, but 1- weren't aired down 2- were trying to go fast to overcome obstacles and 3- had terrible lines to begin with.

FWIW: I've taken now three professionally run off-road classes. (I'm not professing to be an expert; I need more seat time--that's not my point):
The instructors. Guys with spec modded Jeeps who've been doing this for 30+ years and don't miss a weekend in the mud have been impressed with these vehicles and honestly have had nothing bad to say about them. Our biggest limitations are with approach, departure, and breakover angles. NOT ONCE did I ever hear any of them say "man, I wish you had lockers." If you're having trouble negotiating an obstacle you're either 1- negotiating a completely inappropriate obstacle or 2- you don't actually know what you're doing.

It'd be akin to taking a fully modded jeep to one of those purpose built rock crawling courses (you know the ones, with the boulders bigger than a school bus and near 90 degree cliff faces) and expecting it to perform. That's just inane--it's not what it was meant to do.

Verily, if someone tells you 'their' vehicle or 'their' setup is the 'best' off-roader, you need to ask more questions. Because it'll come down to the VERY specific thing you want it to do better than something else. Fact is: as a general ALL AROUND vehicle, these things are pretty un-beatable in factory form.

You can argue. And I'm sure you will. But it's just rhetoric.
My profile picture is exactly the sort of obstacle I'm referring to. Typical eroded rock wall obstacle found on plenty of trails here in Colorado. A Toyota with ATRAC and no lockers will walk right up without issue...I took my previous 4Runner up it completely stock and one of the local Toyota 4x4 clubs uses it as a training obstacle for members. Clearance was a big problem, but I expected it to be. About the spot that pic was taken on the obstacle (a little higher), the right rear was on loose soil, left rear was flying, front right was flying, and the front left was on a rock. In an ICE 4x4 with an auto you can slowly increase throttle until the vehicle starts moving and it climbs right up and over. With the Rivian, if you slowly increase throttle you'll pin it to the floor and the truck goes nowhere with fans ripping and will eventually see a turtle until you let it cool down for a bit. The only way to make any progress is to rapidly add throttle and quickly back off as soon as you get any movement, lest you apply 800 hp at the wrong time. The issue is that you're tippy on two-wheels in this situation and wild movements like this could easily land someone in a world of hurt and likely body damage. It has some to do with stall torque of the motors, but mainly how Rivian tuned the drivetrain to estimate grip (friction / mu) at each corner. When two wheels are flying and another is on a low grip surface there's nothing to really bias the one estimate on the one wheel with really high grip, so the truck doesn't apply enough power to that wheel.

In an ICE with traditional 4WD all the power/torque from the engine is delivered to 2-4 wheels depending on differential/locker arrangement and virtual lockers through brake actuation. A quad-motor Rivian will only ever have one motor's torque available at any given time at any given wheel, so if only one wheel has good grip, you're already down to around 210 hp max....but that's geared around 7:1 vs the ICE going through a low range transfer case and a very low first gear to multiply the torque of the engine. Some like to say that an electric motor has full torque from zero rpm, but it's more like from one rpm, so you have to get some rotation first (stall torque). In wheeling you really want to practice the mantra of as slow as possible, as fast as necessary when negotiating obstacles. I'm sure your off-road courses talked about that a lot. I'm just saying that there are common situations you can find yourself in where the Rivian will not do a good job and the typical ICE methods don't work well. Overall the vehicle is brilliant and I really enjoy it on and off road, but knowing its limitations is important. If I'd had a little more clearance or rock sliders at the time I tried this obstacle I probably could've made it, but it was *not* comfortable and pretty damn precarious...line choice wasn't helping, we tried several different ways that day with a very experienced spotter aiding.
 

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Exactly. I've been saying the same thing over and over again for a long time.....even a base dual motor has far more performance than anyone really needs for a street vehicle. Personally, I think that a range/performance balance should favor range because performance just really doesn't matter anymore after you get to a certain point. I learned that long ago with some of my modified ICE vehicles. Once you get past about 350 - 400 HP or so, you already have more performance than you'd ever need out on the road because 99% of the other drivers on the roads simply don't drive in a way that you can't do whatever you want when it comes to squirting through traffic, passing on a highway, etc... So at some point, more power simply becomes overkill and unnecessary. But for whatever reason, I still see people pushing ICE vehicles to 1,000 HP and beyond. It wasn't long ago that 1,000 HP was the benchmark for modifying ICE vehicles and now even that number isn't eye opening anymore. There are several cars now (both ICE and EV) that come with 1,000 HP from the factory. People are now modding cars to make far more power than that and it's really pretty much pointless for a street vehicle other than for bragging rights.
Yeah but a R1 isn't something anyone needs. It is a "want". Everyone here wants it because of many reasons, but none of those reasons are likely a "need".

Going 0-60 in less than 3 seconds is insane. It used to be super car territory. Now you can do it in a SUV or pickup truck. Nobody needs that. But lots of people want it. Like me.
 

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My profile picture is exactly the sort of obstacle I'm referring to. Typical eroded rock wall obstacle found on plenty of trails here in Colorado. A Toyota with ATRAC and no lockers will walk right up without issue...I took my previous 4Runner up it completely stock and one of the local Toyota 4x4 clubs uses it as a training obstacle for members. Clearance was a big problem, but I expected it to be. About the spot that pic was taken on the obstacle (a little higher), the right rear was on loose soil, left rear was flying, front right was flying, and the front left was on a rock. In an ICE 4x4 with an auto you can slowly increase throttle until the vehicle starts moving and it climbs right up and over. With the Rivian, if you slowly increase throttle you'll pin it to the floor and the truck goes nowhere with fans ripping and will eventually see a turtle until you let it cool down for a bit. The only way to make any progress is to rapidly add throttle and quickly back off as soon as you get any movement, lest you apply 800 hp at the wrong time. The issue is that you're tippy on two-wheels in this situation and wild movements like this could easily land someone in a world of hurt and likely body damage. It has some to do with stall torque of the motors, but mainly how Rivian tuned the drivetrain to estimate grip (friction / mu) at each corner. When two wheels are flying and another is on a low grip surface there's nothing to really bias the one estimate on the one wheel with really high grip, so the truck doesn't apply enough power to that wheel.

In an ICE with traditional 4WD all the power/torque from the engine is delivered to 2-4 wheels depending on differential/locker arrangement and virtual lockers through brake actuation. A quad-motor Rivian will only ever have one motor's torque available at any given time at any given wheel, so if only one wheel has good grip, you're already down to around 210 hp max....but that's geared around 7:1 vs the ICE going through a low range transfer case and a very low first gear to multiply the torque of the engine. Some like to say that an electric motor has full torque from zero rpm, but it's more like from one rpm, so you have to get some rotation first (stall torque). In wheeling you really want to practice the mantra of as slow as possible, as fast as necessary when negotiating obstacles. I'm sure your off-road courses talked about that a lot. I'm just saying that there are common situations you can find yourself in where the Rivian will not do a good job and the typical ICE methods don't work well. Overall the vehicle is brilliant and I really enjoy it on and off road, but knowing its limitations is important. If I'd had a little more clearance or rock sliders at the time I tried this obstacle I probably could've made it, but it was *not* comfortable and pretty damn precarious...line choice wasn't helping, we tried several different ways that day with a very experienced spotter aiding.

I totally see and dig what you're saying.
Maybe one day we can wheel together. :)
 

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My profile picture is exactly the sort of obstacle I'm referring to. Typical eroded rock wall obstacle found on plenty of trails here in Colorado. A Toyota with ATRAC and no lockers will walk right up without issue...I took my previous 4Runner up it completely stock and one of the local Toyota 4x4 clubs uses it as a training obstacle for members. Clearance was a big problem, but I expected it to be. About the spot that pic was taken on the obstacle (a little higher), the right rear was on loose soil, left rear was flying, front right was flying, and the front left was on a rock. In an ICE 4x4 with an auto you can slowly increase throttle until the vehicle starts moving and it climbs right up and over. With the Rivian, if you slowly increase throttle you'll pin it to the floor and the truck goes nowhere with fans ripping and will eventually see a turtle until you let it cool down for a bit. The only way to make any progress is to rapidly add throttle and quickly back off as soon as you get any movement, lest you apply 800 hp at the wrong time. The issue is that you're tippy on two-wheels in this situation and wild movements like this could easily land someone in a world of hurt and likely body damage. It has some to do with stall torque of the motors, but mainly how Rivian tuned the drivetrain to estimate grip (friction / mu) at each corner. When two wheels are flying and another is on a low grip surface there's nothing to really bias the one estimate on the one wheel with really high grip, so the truck doesn't apply enough power to that wheel.

In an ICE with traditional 4WD all the power/torque from the engine is delivered to 2-4 wheels depending on differential/locker arrangement and virtual lockers through brake actuation. A quad-motor Rivian will only ever have one motor's torque available at any given time at any given wheel, so if only one wheel has good grip, you're already down to around 210 hp max....but that's geared around 7:1 vs the ICE going through a low range transfer case and a very low first gear to multiply the torque of the engine. Some like to say that an electric motor has full torque from zero rpm, but it's more like from one rpm, so you have to get some rotation first (stall torque). In wheeling you really want to practice the mantra of as slow as possible, as fast as necessary when negotiating obstacles. I'm sure your off-road courses talked about that a lot. I'm just saying that there are common situations you can find yourself in where the Rivian will not do a good job and the typical ICE methods don't work well. Overall the vehicle is brilliant and I really enjoy it on and off road, but knowing its limitations is important. If I'd had a little more clearance or rock sliders at the time I tried this obstacle I probably could've made it, but it was *not* comfortable and pretty damn precarious...line choice wasn't helping, we tried several different ways that day with a very experienced spotter aiding.
I bet 210 hp trying to push the weight of a R1 is also part of the problem. Never thought about that before. Great points.
 

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Yeah but a R1 isn't something anyone needs. It is a "want". Everyone here wants it because of many reasons, but none of those reasons are likely a "need".

Going 0-60 in less than 3 seconds is insane. It used to be super car territory. Now you can do it in a SUV or pickup truck. Nobody needs that. But lots of people want it. Like me.
The same is true for almost any vehicle other than the most basic transportation. You know, something like a Toyota Corolla. That's about as basic as can be, so it might be a need much more than a want. Any enthusiast vehicle is definitely under the want category and I've owned nothing but enthusiast vehicles my entire life, so I know what you're saying.
 

White Shadow

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There are a lot of people. Many of which I've wheeled with... who will disagree with you. It's not been 'well documented.' It's been narrative and hearsay. But no one's posted a video of a Rivian 'falling flat on its face.' There have been a handful of videos of people trying to drive like they knew what they were doing, but 1- weren't aired down 2- were trying to go fast to overcome obstacles and 3- had terrible lines to begin with.

FWIW: I've taken now three professionally run off-road classes. (I'm not professing to be an expert; I need more seat time--that's not my point):
The instructors. Guys with spec modded Jeeps who've been doing this for 30+ years and don't miss a weekend in the mud have been impressed with these vehicles and honestly have had nothing bad to say about them. Our biggest limitations are with approach, departure, and breakover angles. NOT ONCE did I ever hear any of them say "man, I wish you had lockers." If you're having trouble negotiating an obstacle you're either 1- negotiating a completely inappropriate obstacle or 2- you don't actually know what you're doing.

It'd be akin to taking a fully modded jeep to one of those purpose built rock crawling courses (you know the ones, with the boulders bigger than a school bus and near 90 degree cliff faces) and expecting it to perform. That's just inane--it's not what it was meant to do.

Verily, if someone tells you 'their' vehicle or 'their' setup is the 'best' off-roader, you need to ask more questions. Because it'll come down to the VERY specific thing you want it to do better than something else. Fact is: as a general ALL AROUND vehicle, these things are pretty un-beatable in factory form.

You can argue. And I'm sure you will. But it's just rhetoric.
Probably the biggest issue with the R1 off-road is the way it can get into a stall condition when stopped on an uphill obstacle. I've watch several videos where that happened, among the first was Kyle from OOS when he tested both an R1T and an R1S on the same hill. He claimed to have been flooring the accelerator pedal and no wheels were turning at all. That reminds me of how a 4WD ICE vehicle without 4LO can act when it simply doesn't have the gearing and torque to overcome an obstacle. I just chalked it up to the fact that although electric motors make great torque, getting them to start moving from a dead stop under those types of conditions can be a real challenge. That's the main reason that ICE vehicles made for off-road all have two speed transfer cases. The amount of torque to the wheels is absolutely tremendous due to gearing, so they are never in a stall condition where all the tires sit still under full throttle. This is an area that Rivian can definitely improve for their off-road performance.
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