Latest Time Estimate for Launch Edition - via chat with Rivian 9/21/21

[Autolycus]

I think the point is that, in aggregate, LE pre-order holders have an advantage with regard to delivery timeline. Since


Not to mention the sweet wheel upgrade + Launch Green. Those are tangible benefits off the bat.

Yeah, those are pretty real benefits, for sure. At least $3,300 worth, I'd say. ($1,800 for the wheels and $1,500 for the paint color, if we consider it to be comparable to Forest Green, El Cap, etc.).

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[Dbeglor]

You seem to view a preorder as nothing more than the bare minimum commitment defined by the terms and conditions of the deposit agreement, with no obligations whatsoever on Rivian (besides returning the deposit if customers ask). And then you myopically define it down to "if you're bothered that you got the vehicle after your next door neighbor who ordered a car today, but a different paint color, you're a crybaby."

Yes, your position is legally correct as a formal matter. Nobody's formally entitled to anything, and everyone who's annoyed/whining about this, myself included, is absurdly privileged to even be in this position. But Rivian's current policies (at least as we perceive them, because they won't even come out and say what they're planning) are rightly viewed as something of a snub.

Rivian should (not a legal requirement - just a "should") be doing more for longtime preorder holders who remain excited about the brand. If you plunked down the money years ago, have been on the ball about ordering, configuring, and communicating with Rivian (not easy when they spring announcements on us by email at random), it's not too much to ask that they:

1. Communicate what their current manufacturing and delivery plans are, especially with respect to the $#%!@@! R1S - heavily qualified is OK;
2. Give you priority access to events;
3. Failing that, be transparent and up front about why and how they're deciding who gets access to what;
4. Tell you in advance when they're going to be opening up appointments in your area instead of sending an unannounced email that you might not see until slots are largely gone;
5. Give some meaningful recognition of your place in line when it comes to taking delivery. This could be letting you take factory delivery where infrastructure's not in place where you live (after making sure there are no catastrophic initial issues, and ensuring you know the risk of breakdown).
6. Failing that, send a fscking Rivian water bottle in recognition of the fact that they just. don't. communicate. at. all.

What you're seeing here is frustration at an opaque and arbitrary process that has seen many delays. It's a minor, and a first-world, problem, of course. But that doesn't mean the complaints are totally baseless or unreasonable.

1. Communicate what their current manufacturing and delivery plans are, especially with respect to the $#%!@@! R1S - heavily qualified is OK; They have communicated them repeatedly and updated as they change. Given the challenge it has been to predict when manufacturing of any kind would commence, you expect them to be able to specify when subclasses of manufacturing or even specific deliveries would occur? Again, that's a failure in logic, not them. You want special treatment to be told when the R1S deliveries will precisely occur (sounds like that is your order), when they are still trying to launch the R1T.
2. Give you priority access to events; You mean like hosting test drive events that are only open to reservation holders? Oh wait, they are doing that. What's the preorder date cutoff for such special treatment you desire, March 13, 2019? SOL to March 14 guy, now we'll just hear his rants instead of yours....We're all preorder/reservation holders, the date upon which we did is only a personal badge of honor and not a golden ticket to the Wonka factory.
3. Failing that, be transparent and up front about why and how they're deciding who gets access to what; I don't comprehend why you should be entitled to that information.
4. Tell you in advance when they're going to be opening up appointments in your area instead of sending an unannounced email that you might not see until slots are largely gone; They did tell people in advance (this summer) that these events would be happening and to be on the lookout for more information. So let me get this straight, you would have wanted them to send daily correspondence the week prior saying "soon, soon, soon, soon, NOW!". Don't be ridiculous. What you really wanted was special treatment so that you could take someone else's place, just admit it.
5. Give some meaningful recognition of your place in line when it comes to taking delivery. This could be letting you take factory delivery where infrastructure's not in place where you live (after making sure there are no catastrophic initial issues, and ensuring you know the risk of breakdown). This is way beyond reasonable. So, if you get in a fender bender on week two, you would also expect Rivian to haul the vehicle cross country and back for repairs, in addition to the same for a loaner vehicle? You would be willing to bear that expense, of course, right?
6. Failing that, send a fscking Rivian water bottle in recognition of the fact that they just. don't. communicate. at. all.

You at least acknowledged how privileged you are, but yet still can't help but project that privilege and entitlement. This mentality reminds me of making food for a toddler, and they fail to comprehend that I'm at work trying my best to cater to their needs, but they lack the cognitive ability to think beyond their own emotions and why they aren't getting what they want. Except in this case, the parent is trying to launch a new product/company at an incredibly complex time while the toddler is yanking on their shirt screaming "I want a water bottle!, I want cheddar bunnies!, give me attention!". Luckily for Rivian, these screams are only on message boards and not in their ears. If they were, we might not be getting our vehicles until 2036.

These feelings of grievance are entirely of our own making due to communicating with each other on these boards to know that any possible grievance we can conjure up has occurred. Just ask yourself, if you never read anything on the forums, would you feel the same? I can probably guarantee the answer is no. If only we did the same for the toilet paper we ordered on Amazon, only to find out some schmuck in Skokie got a tour of the factory and their TP before us despite ordering after. Maybe we should just enjoy the toilet paper when it arrives and live our lives.

 

[_evtrk]

I completely agree with you. I am having a harder and harder time accepting the argument that one's home location should push you far down the delivery list from where you would be based on order date/config. Rivian has hosted LE pre-order holders at Normal - so we know that can be done. I see no good reason they cannot deliver an LE vehicle from Normal also. If someone is too far away from an existing service center, as I am, let us take on the responsibility of getting to the delivery center instead of waiting for home delivery. I don't care that I have to drive it 440 miles to get home - it will be my first adventure. The customer that takes delivery 5 miles from a service center in CA or WA may just leave the next day to drive to anywhere in the country - possibly a thousand miles or more from a service center - so it's not like we need to keep the R1s close to a service center at all times. They are ADVENTURE vehicles - people are going to go on adventures with them. Lack of proximity to a service center is a risk we will have to some extent. I'm willing (as I expect many other are also) to take that risk starting on day one.

When I received a call from CS about my same complaint, "if someone takes delivery and drives 1200 miles away where there's no centers what will his local service center be good for? ". He seemed to agree with me on a personal level but on the company level they didnt have a response to give me. he "promised" to add locations other than my home area for delivery that i had no problem driving to and picking up the vehicles at, as i have friends that live in the areas of 4 of the service center already opened throughout the US, but i know he said that just to make me happy, even though i know that wont happen.
To me it seems like maybe they wanted certain things done in a certain way and they planned for that, but then legal must have stepped in and things went on in the complete opposite direction.

 

[Craigins]

When I received a call from CS about my same complaint, "if someone takes delivery and drives 1200 miles away where there's no centers what will his local service center be good for? ". He seemed to agree with me on a personal level but on the company level they didnt have a response to give me. he "promised" to add locations other than my home area for delivery that i had no problem driving to and picking up the vehicles at, as i have friends that live in the areas of 4 of the service center already opened throughout the US, but i know he said that just to make me happy, even though i know that wont happen.
To me it seems like maybe they wanted certain things done in a certain way and they planned for that, but then legal must have stepped in and things went on in the complete opposite direction.

I see service center proximity more important in issues like recalls rather than accident scenarios. If there's a safety recall and Rivian has vehicles scattered all over at extreme distances from service centers which can correct the recall, that's an issue.

In fact, that type of service issue is one of the main arguments the dealership organizations use when defending the manufacturer direct sales laws.

While you personally don't care at the distance, if it costs Rivian, they will care.

 

[paariv]

1. Communicate what their current manufacturing and delivery plans are, especially with respect to the $#%!@@! R1S - heavily qualified is OK; They have communicated them repeatedly and updated as they change. Given the challenge it has been to predict when manufacturing of any kind would commence, you expect them to be able to specify when subclasses of manufacturing or even specific deliveries would occur? Again, that's a failure in logic, not them. You want special treatment to be told when the R1S deliveries will precisely occur (sounds like that is your order), when they are still trying to launch the R1T.
2. Give you priority access to events; You mean like hosting test drive events that are only open to reservation holders? Oh wait, they are doing that. What's the preorder date cutoff for such special treatment you desire, March 13, 2019? SOL to March 14 guy, now we'll just hear his rants instead of yours....We're all preorder/reservation holders, the date upon which we did is only a personal badge of honor and not a golden ticket to the Wonka factory.
3. Failing that, be transparent and up front about why and how they're deciding who gets access to what; I don't comprehend why you should be entitled to that information.
4. Tell you in advance when they're going to be opening up appointments in your area instead of sending an unannounced email that you might not see until slots are largely gone; They did tell people in advance (this summer) that these events would be happening and to be on the lookout for more information. So let me get this straight, you would have wanted them to send daily correspondence the week prior saying "soon, soon, soon, soon, NOW!". Don't be ridiculous. What you really wanted was special treatment so that you could take someone else's place, just admit it.
5. Give some meaningful recognition of your place in line when it comes to taking delivery. This could be letting you take factory delivery where infrastructure's not in place where you live (after making sure there are no catastrophic initial issues, and ensuring you know the risk of breakdown). This is way beyond reasonable. So, if you get in a fender bender on week two, you would also expect Rivian to haul the vehicle cross country and back for repairs, in addition to the same for a loaner vehicle? You would be willing to bear that expense, of course, right?
6. Failing that, send a fscking Rivian water bottle in recognition of the fact that they just. don't. communicate. at. all.

You at least acknowledged how privileged you are, but yet still can't help but project that privilege and entitlement. This mentality reminds me of making food for a toddler, and they fail to comprehend that I'm at work trying my best to cater to their needs, but they lack the cognitive ability to think beyond their own emotions and why they aren't getting what they want. Except in this case, the parent is trying to launch a new product/company at an incredibly complex time while the toddler is yanking on their shirt screaming "I want a water bottle!, I want cheddar bunnies!, give me attention!". Luckily for Rivian, these screams are only on message boards and not in their ears. If they were, we might not be getting our vehicles until 2036.

These feelings of grievance are entirely of our own making due to communicating with each other on these boards to know that any possible grievance we can conjure up has occurred. Just ask yourself, if you never read anything on the forums, would you feel the same? I can probably guarantee the answer is no. If only we did the same for the toilet paper we ordered on Amazon, only to find out some schmuck in Skokie got a tour of the factory and their TP before us despite ordering after. Maybe we should just enjoy the toilet paper when it arrives and live our lives.

You keep using the word "entitled" as if I think they are abridging my contractual rights. I've been clear I don't think that. But I think they should - as in it would be really nice for them to do so, given reasonable expectations we have - make efforts to do more, and in doing so to prioritize those who put down money for an unproven company years ago.

And the request for communications on why and how they decide who gets what is completely reasonable. No they don't *have* to. No, they aren't breaking a promise by being opaque. But they sure as hell would be well-served from a customer service perspective from doing so.

Comms are cheap and don't detract from the core mission of getting regulatory approval and logistics in place to deliver. There's no reason not to increase them. They have money for the staff. So they should do more.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I see service center proximity more important in issues like recalls rather than accident scenarios. If there's a safety recall and Rivian has vehicles scattered all over at extreme distances from service centers which can correct the recall, that's an issue.

In fact, that type of service issue is one of the main arguments the dealership organizations use when defending the manufacturer direct sales laws.

While you personally don't care at the distance, if it costs Rivian, they will care.

Fair enough. But there are many states where we don't seem to have any service centers coming any time soon. It'd be nice to know that we can still get delivery within a year, since it seems unlikely we'll have a service center in that timeframe.

 

[Scott]

I completely agree with you. I am having a harder and harder time accepting the argument that one's home location should push you far down the delivery list from where you would be based on order date/config. Rivian has hosted LE pre-order holders at Normal - so we know that can be done. I see no good reason they cannot deliver an LE vehicle from Normal also. If someone is too far away from an existing service center, as I am, let us take on the responsibility of getting to the delivery center instead of waiting for home delivery. I don't care that I have to drive it 440 miles to get home - it will be my first adventure. The customer that takes delivery 5 miles from a service center in CA or WA may just leave the next day to drive to anywhere in the country - possibly a thousand miles or more from a service center - so it's not like we need to keep the R1s close to a service center at all times. They are ADVENTURE vehicles - people are going to go on adventures with them. Lack of proximity to a service center is a risk we will have to some extent. I'm willing (as I expect many other are also) to take that risk starting on day one.

Just playing devil's advocate: I don't think delivery is the big problem. It is service. I would expect the early release vehicles to have little issues that need attention. This is nearly always true of 1st model year cars, let alone a manufacturer's first car. They want early customers to have as good an experience as possible, and that means getting those issues addressed quickly. It is hard to do that if you live 1000 miles from a service center. Also, they want to hear about all the problems so they can fix the line sooner rather than later. People further from a service center won't deal with minor problems because of the hassle of getting warranty work done. That impacts quality for everyone down the road if the assembly process can't be improved,

I totally hear you about you being willing to accept the risk. My guess is lots of people are, but accepting the risk doesn't stop people from being frustrated when something breaks and the answer is "well we have to tow your car 2 states away and you won't have it for the next month or so". (not to mention the debate over who pays for that tow 2 states away)

 

[Craigins]

Fair enough. But there are many states where we don't seem to have any service centers coming any time soon. It'd be nice to know that we can still get delivery within a year, since it seems unlikely we'll have a service center in that timeframe.

Service centers in "States" wouldn't necessarily be required. I knew a guy in New England who commuted through 3 states to get to work each day.

In theory, service centers should cover a region. Rivian should have those regions mapped out, and probably do. And most like everything else, they keep that information secret because "reasons".

My guess would be taking market research for target demographic population and preorder locations, then splitting those up into regions based on # of potential customers, and attempt to locate a service center near population centers for the region.

That seems to be roughly what they did, seeing all the facilities on the west coast. However doing that essentially abandons areas like the northern plains. However as a company, does it make sense to spend millions on infrastructure for a handful of customers? Look at rural internet as an example.

So many people are looking at it from the viewpoint of "I want my car now, just send it amazon prime" instead of from the Rivian perspective. I don't really understand why looking at it from the company's point of view is so difficult. If I were setting up a car company, I certainly wouldn't deliver blindly by preorder number.

 

[Blueassassin]

just gonna leave this here. ?

 

[Dbeglor]

You are correct, as I was one of them.....2 yrs. 7 months ago. If I had placed my reservation within the past three months, I would have known exactly what you know now.

In 2020, there was a thread started for everyone to enter their reservation date. I thought the thread was started to see where you stood in line. Maybe that's not the reason, but it's what I thought at the time. It is an interesting thread, but the numbers don't relate to when you'll see delivery. Reality set in for me June 2021.

Nearly 3 years ago, there were no discussions about where Service Centers would be placed, or their relevance to deliveries, that I recall. We knew we would have mobile service, so I wasn't concerned. All we had at that time was a reservation number. There wasn't any communication from Rivian, to discourage us from believing reservation numbers were the most important factor. I continued believing they were, until June 2021, when the Guides started contacting people.

Once that started taking place, there have been numerous discussions taking place. I believe everyone that's been a member since June 2021, has been made totally and completely aware that the reservation date really means less than what some of us originally thought. However, since recently re-reading my Preorder Agreement, I know Rivian has not deceived anyone, but I hold them responsible for lack of communication, when they could have simply explained their strategy. They're allowing us to speculate......and, that was their strategy. It worked.

I have no doubt Rivian knew these discussions were taking place and chose not to reveal where deliveries would begin first, etc., so as not to discourage reservations in other areas.....and no one still knows where deliveries will be going. We will in 8 days, or less......hopefully.

So, after all of that reflection and analysis, does it change anything? Knowing what you know now, would you have made a different decision back then? That's my only point, it's interesting to talk about I guess, but does it matter? Reserving early did qualify you to save thousands of dollars in free upgrades (assuming you were ok with the large pack).

Fair enough. But there are many states where we don't seem to have any service centers coming any time soon. It'd be nice to know that we can still get delivery within a year, since it seems unlikely we'll have a service center in that timeframe.

I think you already know the answer to that question, don't you? Hint: it's NO (assuming your projection of not having a service center by then is correct). What's the mystery?

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Service centers in "States" wouldn't necessarily be required. I knew a guy in New England who commuted through 3 states to get to work each day.

In theory, service centers should cover a region. Rivian should have those regions mapped out, and probably do. And most like everything else, they keep that information secret because "reasons".

Okay, "state" was not the best word to use. But currently it seems the nearest service center may be over 400 miles from me, despite living in a major city. I'd have to drive through half of my state, the entirety of the adjacent state, and into the third.

I'm really hoping mobile service is enough for Rivian to start deliveries.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I think you already know the answer to that question, don't you? Hint: it's NO (assuming your projection of not having a service center by then is correct). What's the mystery?

So it's your opinion that some major cities in mainland USA won't see deliveries until 2023 or later?

 

[flabyboy]

This is not true. As we have seen from other CS conversations, if there's not a service center in your area/city, then even LE pre-order holders will be delayed. Where was the benefit, then?

You get the AT wheels for no extra cost and get the option of Launch Green color. And if you live near a service center you will most likely get your vehicle in the next 6 months. That's a better position than most

 

[flabyboy]

You are correct, as I was one of them.....2 yrs. 7 months ago. If I had placed my reservation within the past three months, I would have known exactly what you know now.

In 2020, there was a thread started for everyone to enter their reservation date. I thought the thread was started to see where you stood in line. Maybe that's not the reason, but it's what I thought at the time. It is an interesting thread, but the numbers don't relate to when you'll see delivery. Reality set in for me June 2021.

Nearly 3 years ago, there were no discussions about where Service Centers would be placed, or their relevance to deliveries, that I recall. We knew we would have mobile service, so I wasn't concerned. All we had at that time was a reservation number. There wasn't any communication from Rivian, to discourage us from believing reservation numbers were the most important factor. I continued believing they were, until June 2021, when the Guides started contacting people.

Once that started taking place, there have been numerous discussions taking place. I believe everyone that's been a member since June 2021, has been made totally and completely aware that the reservation date really means less than what some of us originally thought. However, since recently re-reading my Preorder Agreement, I know Rivian has not deceived anyone, but I hold them responsible for lack of communication, when they could have simply explained their strategy. They're allowing us to speculate......and, that was their strategy. It worked.

I have no doubt Rivian knew these discussions were taking place and chose not to reveal where deliveries would begin first, etc., so as not to discourage reservations in other areas.....and no one still knows where deliveries will be going. We will in 8 days, or less......hopefully.

The first thing I thought about when ordering this truck was how will it be supported as a new brand and product. The fact that location near a service center may impact deliveries makes complete sense to me. And I struggle to see how people didn't even think about this 2 years ago. I understand the sour grapes on here, but this makes sense. What doesn't make sense is some mobile service having to travel 300-400 miles to fix a minor issue.

 

[Scoiatael]

The biggest issue Rivian is going to want to avoid, especially with an IPO coming, is delivering a truck to someone 1000 miles from a service center, and then something breaks in the truck, and every EV site has the headline "Rivian owner has to wait 2 weeks for truck to get shipped to a service center to fix defective headlight module".

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the early Adventure builds gets delivered before all the LE builds are delivered.

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