Shzeph

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Ummmmm, maybe YOU would find that more satisfying. But I think most people would rather get (in your example) the $7437 off with zero negotiating rather than only get $5062 off and have to deal with shitty salespeople (or any salespeople) for hours on end.

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe most people are masochists when it comes to this sort of thing. But personally, I’d take the zero negotiations and much larger discount any day





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That is helpful context, thanks for sharing. I wasn't aware of those laws protecting dealers for existing manufacturers. So how long are those agreements? What if say a Ford or a GM wants to move away from the dealership model? Do they have a course of action?
I think that is what dealerships (and the dealer associations) are most afraid of if they open the door to direct sales.
They've often spent years representing a brand at significant investment, and the good ones have a strong relationship in the community and have elevated the perception of the manufacturers brand.
Should a manufacturer be able to end the contract and take sales direct? "Thanks for all your hard work, but we'll take it from here"
Prohibiting manufacturers from direct sales keeps them from doing this. There are obviously other ways to do it and Cadillac is seemingly starting down that path by offerbuyouts for those dealerships that don't want to invest in Lyric sales/service
 
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Guess what? Customers are more satisfied with their deal if it takes a long time and a lot of work.

Two customers walking into the same dealership on the same day looking at a FodgeMC Turbo Rambo W150 pickup. Both decide on the same trim level with an identical MSRP of $57,437.

Customer A: "I'll give you $50,000 and not a penny more". Sales Associate A: "We can do that. Sold!"

Customer B: "I'll give you $50,000 and not a penny more" Sales Associate B: "No way we can do that, the best we can do is $55K." They go back and forth and finally settle on $52,375 after a long negotiation.

Which customer thinks they got a better deal and is happier? It's not the one who paid less.
Unless you really enjoy the haggling, then that satisfaction is only momentary. That feeling that you were able to beat the system, so you can tell people how good you are at negotiating...
Personally, just tell me the price without adding extra crap is good enough for me.
 

DucRider

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Ummmmm, maybe YOU would find that more satisfying. But I think most people would rather get (in your example) the $7437 off with zero negotiating rather than only get $5062 off and have to deal with shitty salespeople (or any salespeople) for hours on end.

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe most people are masochists when it comes to this sort of thing. But personally, I’d take the zero negotiations and much larger discount any day
This is true if you knew both were available. Customer B has no idea Customer A got a better price. Customer A thinks "If they took my offer that quickly, I could have gotten it for less"
 

DucRider

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Unless you really enjoy the haggling, then that satisfaction is only momentary. That feeling that you were able to beat the system, so you can tell people how good you are at negotiating...
Personally, just tell me the price without adding extra crap is good enough for me.
Yes, sometimes people are willing to pay a little more to avoid the negotiation process. Costco Auto is the perfect example.
 

n8dgr8

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My least favorite places.

1. Dentists, sorry no offense to dentists out there.

2. The Stealerships

3. The Tesla Service Center

Tesla and Rivian are doing more than cutting out stealers. They are monopolies for all items related to the repair of your car. Once they figure this out. Service goes downhill quickly. Tesla used to be amazing. Just drop by with your car. Free car washes, vacuums, alignment, wiper blades... now appointments are hard to get, parts are not available, can’t talk to anyone, long wait times for drop off and pickup, rates are high... The Volvo dealer knows they have competition and they have to work to justify their high prices.
 

Shzeph

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Maybe. I guess I don’t see a reason why haggling should be involved in this sort of purchase at all. You don’t walk into Walmart to buy a TV and then haggle with the cashier to get a lower price.
 

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Looks to me like they both paid too much.... lol

Seriously it takes a bit of research before you go to the dealership to ensure you get a fair price. Once I know the price I am willing to pay for the model, trim, and color I want... the first dealership to meet me at my price wins.... a couple of weeks ago that meant driving to Houston for a car for my daughter. If I've done my homework then the fair price is reasonable and I am happy regardless of what others have paid.... however, I do think I tend to pay on the lower end of the spectrum because I am willing to do homework and I am willing to walk away....
 

jjwolf120

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The issue for me is less about the ultimate price and more about wasting my time. I just want to be able to buy a car for a fair price. I don't want to spend several hours at a dealership while they play their little sales games.
 

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Maybe. I guess I don’t see a reason why haggling should be involved in this sort of purchase at all. You don’t walk into Walmart to buy a TV and then haggle with the cashier to get a lower price.
Haggling is not required. On all but the scarcest vehicles you can likely get an offer for full MSRP accepted immediately. The you go into F&I and get to deal with the highest paid salesperson in the dealership.

This is getting a bit sidetracked. The point is whether the owner of the dealership is a manufacturer, local businessman or large national chain does not dictate the (in and of itself) the purchasing experience.
There are many "No haggle, best price on the windshield" dealerships out there. Tesla employees have been known to push maintenance contracts very aggressively. The actual model and ownership of the dealership doesn't matter - it is the corporate culture and the respect that they do or do not show their customers that dictates the experience (Tesla stores are legally dealers BTW).

Right now the only large volume vehicle manufacturer with a direct sales model is Tesla, so drawing conclusions about that model is not always easy. the other component closely tied to the dealership model is service availability (and having multiple options), and that could/should be a thread of it's own.
 

jjwolf120

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The point is whether the owner of the dealership is a manufacturer, local businessman or large national chain does not dictate the (in and of itself) the purchasing experience.
There are many "No haggle, best price on the windshield" dealerships out there. Tesla employees have been known to push maintenance contracts very aggressively. The actual model and ownership of the dealership doesn't matter - it is the corporate culture and the respect that they do or do not show their customers that dictates the experience (Tesla stores are legally dealers BTW).
No, the point is that Rivian, Tesla, Lucid or others shouldn't have to follow the same sales model as Ford, GM, or others. Which is what the dealer associations are trying to force with the lawsuit.
 

DucRider

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No, the point is that Rivian, Tesla, Lucid or others shouldn't have to follow the same sales model as Ford, GM, or others. Which is what the dealer associations are trying to force with the lawsuit.
That's what I said, the ownership of the dealership should not be restricted to prevent manufacturers from getting a dealers license.
All states require that new car sales are handled only thru licensed and regulated dealers with specific rules and consumer protections in place. Tesla and any other manufacturer that sells direct in a state will hold a dealers license, is in fact legally defined as a dealer, and their stores are dealerships.
 

socaladam

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Guess what? Customers are more satisfied with their deal if it takes a long time and a lot of work.

Two customers walking into the same dealership on the same day looking at a FodgeMC Turbo Rambo W150 pickup. Both decide on the same trim level with an identical MSRP of $57,437.

Customer A: "I'll give you $50,000 and not a penny more". Sales Associate A: "We can do that. Sold!"

Customer B: "I'll give you $50,000 and not a penny more" Sales Associate B: "No way we can do that, the best we can do is $55K." They go back and forth and finally settle on $52,375 after a long negotiation.

Which customer thinks they got a better deal and is happier? It's not the one who paid less.

Value is in the eye of the beholder. If the consumer doesn't see value then they are not likely to purchase.

Except when it comes to cars and high pressure sales. Many consumers feel an obligation when they start the negotiation and sales people pray on this obligation.

This negotiation exists no where else but when purchasing a vehicle.

Doesn't exist at BestBuy
Doesn't exist at Macy's
Doesn't exist when buying a home.

Why should this continue to exist in vehicle sales? The answer is it shouldn't and thus gave rise to such companies as Tesla, Carmax, Vroom, Carvana, TrueCar and others who offer fixed pricing like Costco and some banks/credit unions.

Stealerships are going the way of the dodo bird and electric cars did not cause it, their poor service and high pressure sales are a direct push away from their business model.
 

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My initial reaction to these lawsuits has been "f these dealers" but I'm trying to think about it from a more balanced viewpoint. What is the cost of entry to do business as a car dealer? Do they take into account the fact that the only way consumers can buy vehicles is through dealerships? Can they exit the business easily without having to deal with a lot of sunk costs? I know this is not apples to apples but the whole Uber/Lyft/taxi medallion thing comes to mind. Those NYC taxi drivers spent millions of dollars, taking high interest loans, for these limited medallions for the right to operate a taxi with the assumption that there aren't alternate options available. So it put them in a really precarious position. I remember reading about many of them taking their lives because the double whammy of their investment tanking in value and not getting enough fares because of rideshare. The laws should have taken care of them - through buying back those medallions at a specified rate, for example - to fully allow Uber/Lyft to operate.

Is there a similar case to be made for these dealerships?
I'm not sure there is an easy answer. Everybody who is in business is at risk in the US of having the government legislate you out of operation.

But the current Dealership Only model is not what many customers desire. In the end, the customer has the money, and that is where the power should reside at.
 

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