If you could be on the CCS or Super Charger network moving forward, which would you choose?

[milliemc]

The discussion for general Tesla standard opening can be found here. Long story short, if Rivian decided, they could switch standards. Cannot italicize if enough, it's doubtful any OEMs will adopt it car-side that aren't smaller startup status like Aptera. That being said, companies like Rivian could do it if they wanted.

Let's try not to mix discussions as much as possible (as if I have any say in the matter) and limit the thread to what would you choose. Like I hate a lot about this and Tesla, especially Musk in general but I'd still click the Tesla option.

So the question, if you had a configurator in front of you and could choose "CCS" or "Tesla" (I'm not calling it North American) which would you choose?

We have a Rivian R1T reservation but currently drive a Tesla Model 3, 2020, and know that the Super Charger network Tesla has in place is excellent. We also have experienced Level 2 Tesla Chargers at two different National parks; also excellent. I am no longer an Elon fan girl but can recognize quality and competence when I experience it--and it is Tesla, at charging.

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[domoplaytime]

Your Rivian will only accept 48A charging.

For A/C charging. DC charging goes much higher.

 

[Birdowin]

Thank you for that clarification

 

[JAH]

whichever one codifies a decent communication protocol standard first. this is necessary for wide-spread installation of utility-owned chargers in cities

 

[Jakeblanton]

I have only seen 1 person think big picture as far as current charging speed. I voted CCS, only V4 Super chargers can do the 350KW that EA and others can do. As an R1T driver, I need speed in KW form. I see most Super Charger networks are not V4. I don't care about Elon or his business dealings, I like convenience and would love to be able to pull up to a new V4 station with CCS and pull my 350kw speed and leave. I was under the impression he was putting CCS on his new builds and was looking at putting it on the older network over time. That being said, I have only ever used a DCFC once in the 3 months I have owned my truck. I am making a trip next week that will be the second time needing to use that network (Planning to go to same charger as last time) and I am trying to figure the distance to see if I can make it to the destination on that charge. I had a good experience and understand it can be a pain in certain situations. I am concerned if Tesla connector can handle the heat and how they will be a player in the 800V architecture game. In my opinion, the only thing Tesla has going for it is the number of stations it has already in service.

 

[Bunker Hill]

I voted to have R1x be CCS rather than Tesla for the following reasons:
1. CCS is already a standard rather than just a spec and not controlled by one person or company.
2. CCS gives me choices about which charging supplier to use (Chargepoint, EA, etc.), which means supplier competition. Monopolies are never a good thing in a market driven economy.
3. We need charging supplier competition, but we don't need lost of different charging connections that are supplier specific. This would be like every electric appliance in your house having a different plug connection depending on who supplies your electricity. Plug connection design specific to the supplier is all about building brand loyalty and creating barriers so switching – not about building a better mousetrap.

This is probably coming from my recent first road trip in my R1T and asking "Alexa, where is the nearest charger?" She replied that there was a Tesla charger 9 miles from my current location. My scheduled stop was still some 40 miles away (Electrify America). When I asked Alexa "where is the nearest CCS charging station?" she came back with the Tesla charger 9 miles away. Now that's one monopoly (Amazon) supporting another monopoly (Tesla) though as EVs gain in popularity, Tesla's monopoly is being challenged. Let's not feed it by making the Tesla charge connection a standard.

 

[bearcats513]

Just took a 2500 mile road trip, left on our first day of ownership of our R1T. We were used to traveling in an EV (Model 3) but the CCS 'network' of chargers is a mess - hit and miss at best. About 1/2 to 2/3 of EA chargers were working, they were over full, and each EA location only had about 4 charging spots. The smallest Supercharger location usually has at least 6 stalls.
EA needs to do better with maintenance and increase the number of stalls at each location to make using their network viable.
Our trip took about 2 hours longer than when we make the trip in our Model 3 purely due to charging inconsistencies, broken machines, and waiting for a stall.

 

[Tahoe Man]

I voted to have R1x be CCS rather than Tesla for the following reasons:
1. CCS is already a standard rather than just a spec and not controlled by one person or company.
2. CCS gives me choices about which charging supplier to use (Chargepoint, EA, etc.), which means supplier competition. Monopolies are never a good thing in a market driven economy.
3. We need charging supplier competition, but we don't need lost of different charging connections that are supplier specific. This would be like every electric appliance in your house having a different plug connection depending on who supplies your electricity. Plug connection design specific to the supplier is all about building brand loyalty and creating barriers so switching – not about building a better mousetrap.

This is probably coming from my recent first road trip in my R1T and asking "Alexa, where is the nearest charger?" She replied that there was a Tesla charger 9 miles from my current location. My scheduled stop was still some 40 miles away (Electrify America). When I asked Alexa "where is the nearest CCS charging station?" she came back with the Tesla charger 9 miles away. Now that's one monopoly (Amazon) supporting another monopoly (Tesla) though as EVs gain in popularity, Tesla's monopoly is being challenged. Let's not feed it by making the Tesla charge connection a standard.

I'm not sure how Tesla or Amazon is considered a monopoly.

There's nothing wrong with having brand specific charging connections. In fact anything would be an improvement than what is available today. If the courts didn't penalize VW into installing chargers, EA wouldn't be around either. Even worse, the government is having to step in and provide billions for charging infrastructure because the CCS charging system is such a mess. I wouldn't be surprised if VW sells a majority of their system as early as they legally can. The O&M cost are obviously much more than was projected, that they're having to leave half their system dead. It's obvious nobody is going to get rich selling electricity in parking lots.

By having a closed system car manufactures could decide if they want to operate their own system, farm it out, create a consortium, etc. I'm not sure why or how someone would think this results in a monopoly, when home charging provides the biggest competition for EV charging.

 

[Scoiatael]

For me at least, Tesla. No hesitation there. Route I take from Southern California to Northern California has supercharger sites with 50+ chargers at multiple sites. EA stations only have 4 to 6 chargers at each site, with 2 of them broken at each site lately.

 

[C.R. Rivian]

Wrong question...the correct answer is both. Between US and EU squeezing the rules and offering $, we will end up with a one network standard with adaptor interoperability initially. Steve Jobs hated opening up Apple Music to Windows...then made a bunch of $ doing it. Elon, think about it.

 

[Zorg]

My choice would be to keep the CCS on the driver side and a Tesla port on the front passenger side (to be compatible with Tesla SCs setup).

I have tried a few fast chargers (2 EA and 1 EVGo) locally, and I sure miss the ease of use of the Tesla SC/handle.

 

[Zorg]

I have only seen 1 person think big picture as far as current charging speed. I voted CCS, only V4 Super chargers can do the 350KW that EA and others can do. As an R1T driver, I need speed in KW form. I see most Super Charger networks are not V4. I don't care about Elon or his business dealings, I like convenience and would love to be able to pull up to a new V4 station with CCS and pull my 350kw speed and leave. I was under the impression he was putting CCS on his new builds and was looking at putting it on the older network over time. That being said, I have only ever used a DCFC once in the 3 months I have owned my truck. I am making a trip next week that will be the second time needing to use that network (Planning to go to same charger as last time) and I am trying to figure the distance to see if I can make it to the destination on that charge. I had a good experience and understand it can be a pain in certain situations. I am concerned if Tesla connector can handle the heat and how they will be a player in the 800V architecture game. In my opinion, the only thing Tesla has going for it is the number of stations it has already in service.

Based on current setup you will never pull anywhere close to 350KW on the Rivian. It's a 400V battery with a 500A max charge rate, so roughly 200KW or a little more. This would be achievable on a v3 SC (Tesla are 400V batteries as well).

 

[Jakeblanton]

I know my truck would never pull that kind of juice. I know I won't get better than 200 sustained for very long. I only say that because I remembered tesla did not run that high orginally. I know they can get that now, but I have not fully disgested the document about thermal limiting and if it would be compatible for an adapter. I want access to the network for its stability but I philosophically have an issue with him now trying to open up the network if we use that connector. I don't know what rules are in place for what money he would get for how many companies convert, but I think the time for him to open that patent for using that connector has pasted and the industry is moving away because it's to little, to late. I do like some things Musk has done, but I feel he screwed himself on this one for keeping it closed off.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I do like some things Musk has done, but I feel he screwed himself on this one for keeping it closed off.

I probably would be a lot less bothered about this whole situation if they didn't decide to call it the North American Charging Standard when it is not and has never been a standard. The whole thing was proprietary and Tesla only up until the exact moment they decided to release it. The superchargers still aren't going to be compatible with a vehicle that makes use of this connector until Tesla decides to open that up too.

It's the epitome of too little too late.

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