Jarico75
Well-Known Member
When they actually deliver a product for at least a year.when does a 14 year old company with over 7000 employees- that has raised over 10 billion dollars quit being a startup?
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When they actually deliver a product for at least a year.when does a 14 year old company with over 7000 employees- that has raised over 10 billion dollars quit being a startup?
Click on the purchase price tab. That has deducted 4,300 dollars from the purchase prices based on assumed savings. That is not the price you have to pay, it is also not the price the taxes and registration are based on.See Tesla Website
First, that's showing $690 more than $35k. That's not the same as $35k.See Tesla Website
You keep saying “14yr old startup”, but Rivian is only 12yrs old and they only started focusing on EV’s in 2011. Then they didn’t announce the R1T/R1S until Dec 2017. So if we’re being honest, we haven’t really been “teased” for even 4 years. Patience.We've been hearing about this little startup named Rivian for a decade now. We've been getting teased, while nothing of substance is making it to us. Rivian has now ate up more than 10bn in cash, and investors are going to be growing impatient with this 14yr old startup.
Again, any Model S refresh = minor changes to a positively ancient model. Comparing the information available re: Model S (of any trim) versus what Rivian hopefuls are requesting about R1T / R1S does not track.Literally almost all of what I said applies to all trims of the refreshed S. The plaid was treated separately, and had a separate delivery party. People who received it didn't know much about it before taking delivery.
You keep saying “14yr old startup”, but Rivian is only 12yrs old and they only started focusing on EV’s in 2011. Then they didn’t announce the R1T/R1S until Dec 2017. So if we’re being honest, we haven’t really been “teased” for even 4 years. Patience.
The new model S isn't a *minor* refresh. They completely changed the interior, and most of the underpinnings of the car. New motors in the Plaid (at a minimum). The car has a steering yoke and no physical gear selector. The EPA ratings for Plaid didn't go up until the literal night of their first delivery at the delivery event. Safety tests went out after the new model was released. People are sitting here saying Rivian pre-emptively lied and *could not have* delivered a vehicle because they didn't pre-emptively share EPA ratings or *details* around charging speedAgain, any Model S refresh = minor changes to a positively ancient model. Comparing the information available re: Model S (of any trim) versus what Rivian hopefuls are requesting about R1T / R1S does not track.
It's the silliest comparison: it's a refresh. An accurate example might be unreleased models like the Roadster or the Cybertruck—not the Model S.
My response was that there was little information regarding the actual infotainment system coming out with the S (it did come with a new UI). People were purchasing it (specifically plaid) without any understanding of the specifics of even how to put the car into drive. Yes, there's past precedence there for a baseline of performance with the previous S, but they were still making that purchase. The same goes with EPA values. The plaid EPA values were released on... 6/14? The car was having deliveries on... 6/10 supposedly?So let's go back to July 1st, 2021. R1T buyers on July 1st...
- Would have had zero details surrounding infotainment
- Would have had zero details surrounding charging speeds or charging performance
Is that sound accurate?
I ask this because I am trying to re-evaluate how long I should expect to wait for a vehicle. Last I knew, we had zero details on charging performance or infotainment, and the release date was just weeks away. I find this incredibly far-fetched; the idea that in just weeks I could be receiving a vehicle, while none of this information was available. People have challenged me. They've asked me why am I pipe dreaming about Rivian deliveries?
Again, any Model S refresh = minor changes to a positively ancient model. Comparing the information available re: Model S (of any trim) versus what Rivian hopefuls are requesting about R1T / R1S does not track.
It's the silliest comparison: it's a refresh. An accurate example might be unreleased models like the Roadster or the Cybertruck—not the Model S.
//
To the point: it's clear Rivian fell significantly behind and they don't have a complete grasp on how long it'll take. Surely the Communications Department isn't overworked, so they're likely waiting for concrete details. I can only offer pity: probably more than a few heads are on fire. What needs to be fixed now? How likely will it trigger a recall? How much will reviewers care about it? Can we schedule service appointments for them later? Is the software usable enough?
Kind of like hardware, if all information isn't nailed down on the launch, people will get antsy. "Where are all the service locations?"
It's a first impression, so Rivian will keep on delaying any serious # of deliveries until they're confident it'll be well-received. It's corporate suicide otherwise: the launch will be the most attention & scrutiny Rivian has ever had and likely will have until its IPO.
It's not just sending cars to reviewers, but first owners, too.
Their ramp up has been fairly quick in staffing. They were focusing on a car for the first... 5 or so years, and only shifted to the SUV market somewhere in the last 5 to 7. Funding has massively increased in the last handful of years. It's really (in my mind) more fair to think of them as a 5ish year old company (that's roughly how long ago they bought the Mitsu plant). So they've been working on production of the R1 platform for about the same timeframe as VW did with the MEB platform.That is fair; they were established in 2009, twelve years ago. Correction: Rivian is a 12 year old startup with over 7000 employees and has raised over 10 billion dollars.
For context, you're also discounting the massive challenges that Tesla has at the time of the S. Rivian has a lot of challenges as well, but the EV ecosystem is much more mature now (thanks to Tesla and others). At this point it comes down to how much you trust Rivian. I trust them to starting deliveries within a couple of months of their "official" post-covid date (So June + some startup issues). If you think they're two or three years out still, then there's obviously a different understanding on your end, and it sounds like you're better off grabbing another vehicle in the interim for your own sanity at a minimum.I wouldn’t compare against Tesla’s Cybertruck or Roadster. Both of those vehicles are coming from a company with a decade+ of automotive manufacturing experience, countless plants, more-mature supply chains - on the list goes. I used Model S to help reset my own expectations, which is to say, I now expect R1S deliveries in Q2-Q3 2024. We just simply haven’t heard every excuse yet. In 2009, Tesla didn’t have chip shortages and a pandemic to navigate. There are many valid reasons to say a 3 year delay is too optimistic for Rivian.
Like you point out, Rivian is one of the most hyped and anticipated EV brands to hit the market. The amount of pressure they are putting on themselves for a flawless experience (fire safety, build quality, paint quality, ongoing customer satisfaction, infotainment experience - and we’re not even trying to talk about who can build a better driver assistance system (Tesla Autopilot vs. the world)). With that said - I don’t think Rivian is going to let themselves enter the market with obvious defects in any of those areas. With Rivian, the focus isn’t on self-driving or driver assistance - so I don’t think they will let that hold them up.
I have read about Rivian IPO, and I wonder if they are not going public yet because of the requirement to be more forthcoming with investors. That would make sense. It could be like Nikola all over again. So until launch gets closer, staying private and being able to remain silent to all but the handful of private investors is probably smart.
The new model S isn't a *minor* refresh. They completely changed the interior, and most of the underpinnings of the car. New motors in the Plaid (at a minimum). The car has a steering yoke and no physical gear selector. The EPA ratings for Plaid didn't go up until the literal night of their first delivery at the delivery event. Safety tests went out after the new model was released. People are sitting here saying Rivian pre-emptively lied and *could not have* delivered a vehicle because they didn't pre-emptively share EPA ratings or *details* around charging speed
What you're describing is a level of comfort/trust with Tesla vs Rivian. But that's not the context to what I was replying to. OP's statement that I was replying to was the following. Italics added by me.
My response was that there was little information regarding the actual infotainment system coming out with the S (it did come with a new UI). People were purchasing it (specifically plaid) without any understanding of the specifics of even how to put the car into drive. Yes, there's past precedence there for a baseline of performance with the previous S, but they were still making that purchase. The same goes with EPA values. The plaid EPA values were released on... 6/14? The car was having deliveries on... 6/10 supposedly?
I referenced the S plaid because it's the most recent major release from the company that people are familiar with.
Alternatively, look at the Ioniq 5. That's due out "this fall" in the U.S. and is literally available to purchase elsewhere. There aren't official EPA numbers for it, and on Hyundai's website you only get the same sort of CGI images of the UI as what Rivian has on their website. They don't even have estimated MSRP's on their damn website.
Neither the e-tron GT or Q4 e-tron have epa range ratings either. Are we to believe that's a sign of imminent demise? Must be major issues with it coming to the U.S. since that's the case, but they're available in Europe to reviewers (Sarcasm).
Do I want more information from Rivian? Yes. I think we're on the same page there. I've been fairly blunt about that over time. BUT I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that it's impossible or particularly atypical for a manufacturer to deliver a vehicle without an infotainment walk through on their website, and official published EPA values weeks or months in advance of deliveries. We're all just nervous because they're a new manufacturer and as such are holding them to higher standards. Which I think is reasonable if framed accordingly, and not in the context of saying "we don't have this, so therefore they've been lying, and there must be massive problems with the car because of that."
Could it be that they're still working out UI issues? Sure. Could they be working our lower than expected EPA numbers? I'd be surprised, but sure. But the information that's been released so far would not have precluded them from making deliveries at the end of July.
Yeah, so this goes back to my point in another reply here. What you are describing is wanting more comfort with the quality of the product, and not the inability to deliver a product. Unless you have a launch edition pre-order and have been contact by a guide, you'll have plenty of time to make that decision even without another production delay.I personally feel it is all of the above type scenario (with specifics of what is delaying them).
Infotainment = look at the infotainment performance in the Mach-E. Ford isn’t alone here. Volvo as well. Tons of examples of how delivering an infotainment system on par with Audi or Tesla is easier said then done
Build quality = Tesla still can’t figure out how to build vehicles, and they have built hundreds of thousands of them. Original Audi E-Tron had a lot of unhappy customers
Fire hazard = Even the established automakers can’t figure this out. Tesla has been mostly lucky, but still has their own tattered track record with fires
EV Charging Performance / range woes = Ford has had pretty good luck here, but their charging performance still doesn’t live up to what is advertised
I don’t expect Rivian will get a pass on any of these areas, and will have the same challenges that all of these companies have had.
Based on Rivian’s eagerness to demo collapsible cookware and their vehicles off-roading capabilities, I believe it shows how thirsty & eager they are to please the public. With that - I think that if infotainment or charging performance was good to go for production release, we would know it.
For context, you're also discounting the massive challenges that Tesla has at the time of the S. Rivian has a lot of challenges as well, but the EV ecosystem is much more mature now (thanks to Tesla and others). At this point it comes down to how much you trust Rivian. I trust them to starting deliveries within a couple of months of their "official" post-covid date (So June + some startup issues). If you think they're two or three years out still, then there's obviously a different understanding on your end, and it sounds like you're better off grabbing another vehicle in the interim for your own sanity at a minimum.
Agree with this. Also, the Telsa comparison is lazy as there are very different circumstances around each.If you think they're two or three years out still, then there's obviously a different understanding on your end, and it sounds like you're better off grabbing another vehicle in the interim for your own sanity at a minimum.