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Help end debate: Is it true Rivian was scheduled to begin delivery of R1T in July, without details on infotainment or charging?

Jarico75

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when does a 14 year old company with over 7000 employees- that has raised over 10 billion dollars quit being a startup?
When they actually deliver a product for at least a year.
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See Tesla Website
1627316910090.png
Click on the purchase price tab. That has deducted 4,300 dollars from the purchase prices based on assumed savings. That is not the price you have to pay, it is also not the price the taxes and registration are based on.
 

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First, that's showing $690 more than $35k. That's not the same as $35k.

Second, that's not what the site shows at all. That's a gigantic mistruth that Tesla continues to peddle on their site. This is reality:

Rivian R1T R1S Help end debate: Is it true Rivian was scheduled to begin delivery of R1T in July, without details on infotainment or charging? Screen Shot 2021-07-26 at 1.19.25 PM


The Model 3 is a >$40k car right now and has never been a $35k car.
 

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We've been hearing about this little startup named Rivian for a decade now. We've been getting teased, while nothing of substance is making it to us. Rivian has now ate up more than 10bn in cash, and investors are going to be growing impatient with this 14yr old startup.
You keep saying “14yr old startup”, but Rivian is only 12yrs old and they only started focusing on EV’s in 2011. Then they didn’t announce the R1T/R1S until Dec 2017. So if we’re being honest, we haven’t really been “teased” for even 4 years. Patience.
 

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Literally almost all of what I said applies to all trims of the refreshed S. The plaid was treated separately, and had a separate delivery party. People who received it didn't know much about it before taking delivery.
Again, any Model S refresh = minor changes to a positively ancient model. Comparing the information available re: Model S (of any trim) versus what Rivian hopefuls are requesting about R1T / R1S does not track.

It's the silliest comparison: it's a refresh. An accurate example might be unreleased models like the Roadster or the Cybertruck—not the Model S.

//

To the point: it's clear Rivian fell significantly behind and they don't have a complete grasp on how long it'll take. Surely the Communications Department isn't overworked, so they're likely waiting for concrete details. I can only offer pity: probably more than a few heads are on fire. What needs to be fixed now? How likely will it trigger a recall? How much will reviewers care about it? Can we schedule service appointments for them later? Is the software usable enough?

Kind of like hardware, if all information isn't nailed down on the launch, people will get antsy. "Where are all the service locations?"

It's a first impression, so Rivian will keep on delaying any serious # of deliveries until they're confident it'll be well-received. It's corporate suicide otherwise: the launch will be the most attention & scrutiny Rivian has ever had and likely will have until its IPO.

It's not just sending cars to reviewers, but first owners, too.
 

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That is fair; they were established in 2009, twelve years ago. Correction: Rivian is a 12 year old startup with over 7000 employees and has raised over 10 billion dollars.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivian

As we get brought on the journey with Rivian, I was hoping for more communication, more details - especially as vehicle launch is (was) just days (if not hours) away from happening, until RJ pushed back R1T again.

I wasn’t following Tesla super closely back in 2008-2012, but I quickly glossed over their timeline. Original delivery dates for Model S was in 2009, with deliveries not happening until Q3 2012. Let’s assume that the learning curve Tesla overcame in 2009 holds true for Rivian. I will use this moment to reset expectations for myself. With that....I am telling myself I will not get my R1S until Q2-Q3 2024.

With this expectation reset, it makes it much easier for me to plan my own personal vehicle purchase decisions. I still will be a R1S customer, but in the interim, I will have to purchase a Q4 E-tron or Model Y. They have towing capacity to tow small jet boats, which will allow me to quit borrowing a vehicle to tow.

I arrive at the Q2 2024 number by using Tesla’s Model S timeline (which is generous, in that Tesla had started their EV journey with the Lotus model), and then using the date used in 2019, which was R1S delivery starting in November of 2021. Take November 2021, add Tesla 3 year delay, and you have the new delivery date of Q2-Q3 2024.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst. I don’t know if Q2-Q3 2024 is planning for the worst case scenario, given Rivian has not even had a Lotus conversion experience like Tesla had to gain experience. This Q2-Q3 2024 number might seem ridiculous, but it properly resets expectations for myself - so that the frustration with Rivian isn’t going to further annoy me, and it uses one of the only data points we have (where a net-new automotive company introduces a new brand and model). When I use this timeline; it also helps me plan for the purchase of the Model Y or Q4 E-Tron (Q4 E-tron is expected to be Audi’s second best selling vehicle by the end of 2021, so I anticipate being able to get one in Q3, consider they are already being reviewed in Europe). So I think assuming a 3 year delay is fair.

I know there are specific threads covering the R1S and R1T delays, but is anyone else on this forum have an expectation similar to my own?

I wonder how Tesla’s headcount numbers looked around Model S release. I ask this because if there are 7000 people on payroll, and deliveries don’t start until Q2-Q3 2024, there will have to be many more funding rounds. The number 7000 definitely gives the impression that a large number of individuals are collectively working together toward delivering a product that will provide revenue, but Rivian could very well produce zero vehicles for the public until 2024 (which means zero revenue).

Using Tesla’s timeline though; this 2024 number doesn’t feel pessimistic, it feels almost optimistic.
You keep saying “14yr old startup”, but Rivian is only 12yrs old and they only started focusing on EV’s in 2011. Then they didn’t announce the R1T/R1S until Dec 2017. So if we’re being honest, we haven’t really been “teased” for even 4 years. Patience.
 

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Again, any Model S refresh = minor changes to a positively ancient model. Comparing the information available re: Model S (of any trim) versus what Rivian hopefuls are requesting about R1T / R1S does not track.

It's the silliest comparison: it's a refresh. An accurate example might be unreleased models like the Roadster or the Cybertruck—not the Model S.
The new model S isn't a *minor* refresh. They completely changed the interior, and most of the underpinnings of the car. New motors in the Plaid (at a minimum). The car has a steering yoke and no physical gear selector. The EPA ratings for Plaid didn't go up until the literal night of their first delivery at the delivery event. Safety tests went out after the new model was released. People are sitting here saying Rivian pre-emptively lied and *could not have* delivered a vehicle because they didn't pre-emptively share EPA ratings or *details* around charging speed

What you're describing is a level of comfort/trust with Tesla vs Rivian. But that's not the context to what I was replying to. OP's statement that I was replying to was the following. Italics added by me.

So let's go back to July 1st, 2021. R1T buyers on July 1st...

  • Would have had zero details surrounding infotainment
  • Would have had zero details surrounding charging speeds or charging performance

Is that sound accurate?

I ask this because I am trying to re-evaluate how long I should expect to wait for a vehicle. Last I knew, we had zero details on charging performance or infotainment, and the release date was just weeks away. I find this incredibly far-fetched; the idea that in just weeks I could be receiving a vehicle, while none of this information was available. People have challenged me. They've asked me why am I pipe dreaming about Rivian deliveries?
My response was that there was little information regarding the actual infotainment system coming out with the S (it did come with a new UI). People were purchasing it (specifically plaid) without any understanding of the specifics of even how to put the car into drive. Yes, there's past precedence there for a baseline of performance with the previous S, but they were still making that purchase. The same goes with EPA values. The plaid EPA values were released on... 6/14? The car was having deliveries on... 6/10 supposedly?

I referenced the S plaid because it's the most recent major release from the company that people are familiar with.

Alternatively, look at the Ioniq 5. That's due out "this fall" in the U.S. and is literally available to purchase elsewhere. There aren't official EPA numbers for it, and on Hyundai's website you only get the same sort of CGI images of the UI as what Rivian has on their website. They don't even have estimated MSRP's on their damn website.

Neither the e-tron GT or Q4 e-tron have epa range ratings either. Are we to believe that's a sign of imminent demise? Must be major issues with it coming to the U.S. since that's the case, but they're available in Europe to reviewers (Sarcasm).

Do I want more information from Rivian? Yes. I think we're on the same page there. I've been fairly blunt about that over time. BUT I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that it's impossible or particularly atypical for a manufacturer to deliver a vehicle without an infotainment walk through on their website, and official published EPA values weeks or months in advance of deliveries. We're all just nervous because they're a new manufacturer and as such are holding them to higher standards. Which I think is reasonable if framed accordingly, and not in the context of saying "we don't have this, so therefore they've been lying, and there must be massive problems with the car because of that."

Could it be that they're still working out UI issues? Sure. Could they be working our lower than expected EPA numbers? I'd be surprised, but sure. But the information that's been released so far would not have precluded them from making deliveries at the end of July.
 
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I wouldn’t compare against Tesla’s Cybertruck or Roadster. Both of those vehicles are coming from a company with a decade+ of automotive manufacturing experience, countless plants, more-mature supply chains - on the list goes. I used Model S to help reset my own expectations, which is to say, I now expect R1S deliveries in Q2-Q3 2024. We just simply haven’t heard every excuse yet. In 2009, Tesla didn’t have chip shortages and a pandemic to navigate. There are many valid reasons to say a 3 year delay is too optimistic for Rivian.

Like you point out, Rivian is one of the most hyped and anticipated EV brands to hit the market. The amount of pressure they are putting on themselves for a flawless experience (fire safety, build quality, paint quality, ongoing customer satisfaction, infotainment experience - and we’re not even trying to talk about who can build a better driver assistance system (Tesla Autopilot vs. the world)). With that said - I don’t think Rivian is going to let themselves enter the market with obvious defects in any of those areas. With Rivian, the focus isn’t on self-driving or driver assistance - so I don’t think they will let that hold them up.

I have read about Rivian IPO, and I wonder if they are not going public yet because of the requirement to be more forthcoming with investors. That would make sense. It could be like Nikola all over again. So until launch gets closer, staying private and being able to remain silent to all but the handful of private investors is probably smart.

Again, any Model S refresh = minor changes to a positively ancient model. Comparing the information available re: Model S (of any trim) versus what Rivian hopefuls are requesting about R1T / R1S does not track.

It's the silliest comparison: it's a refresh. An accurate example might be unreleased models like the Roadster or the Cybertruck—not the Model S.

//

To the point: it's clear Rivian fell significantly behind and they don't have a complete grasp on how long it'll take. Surely the Communications Department isn't overworked, so they're likely waiting for concrete details. I can only offer pity: probably more than a few heads are on fire. What needs to be fixed now? How likely will it trigger a recall? How much will reviewers care about it? Can we schedule service appointments for them later? Is the software usable enough?

Kind of like hardware, if all information isn't nailed down on the launch, people will get antsy. "Where are all the service locations?"

It's a first impression, so Rivian will keep on delaying any serious # of deliveries until they're confident it'll be well-received. It's corporate suicide otherwise: the launch will be the most attention & scrutiny Rivian has ever had and likely will have until its IPO.

It's not just sending cars to reviewers, but first owners, too.
 

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Tesla is run by a physicist savant with no manufacturing education, who was surprised to learn that manufacturing cars is hard.

Rivian was founded and is headed by an engineer with a doctorate in automotive engineering.

I know which one is more likely to do better at making a solid finished product, even if it takes a long time.
 

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That is fair; they were established in 2009, twelve years ago. Correction: Rivian is a 12 year old startup with over 7000 employees and has raised over 10 billion dollars.
Their ramp up has been fairly quick in staffing. They were focusing on a car for the first... 5 or so years, and only shifted to the SUV market somewhere in the last 5 to 7. Funding has massively increased in the last handful of years. It's really (in my mind) more fair to think of them as a 5ish year old company (that's roughly how long ago they bought the Mitsu plant). So they've been working on production of the R1 platform for about the same timeframe as VW did with the MEB platform.

In the end of the day, your real issue seems to be that you're getting antsy for a new car, and are trying to guess when you'll get one. You haven't been contacted by a guide yet, right? You don't have a launch edition? Assuming that's the case, practically speaking the absolutely earliest you'd get a car per Rivian is January, but realistically due to numbers of production it's say... mid-next year? I bought an ID.4 based on that knowing I'll either flip it when the time comes, or grab another truck eventually.

DId you reserve a lightning? You want a electric car to tow lightweight stuff. Have you looked at a Rav4 Prime? An E-tron?
 

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I wouldn’t compare against Tesla’s Cybertruck or Roadster. Both of those vehicles are coming from a company with a decade+ of automotive manufacturing experience, countless plants, more-mature supply chains - on the list goes. I used Model S to help reset my own expectations, which is to say, I now expect R1S deliveries in Q2-Q3 2024. We just simply haven’t heard every excuse yet. In 2009, Tesla didn’t have chip shortages and a pandemic to navigate. There are many valid reasons to say a 3 year delay is too optimistic for Rivian.

Like you point out, Rivian is one of the most hyped and anticipated EV brands to hit the market. The amount of pressure they are putting on themselves for a flawless experience (fire safety, build quality, paint quality, ongoing customer satisfaction, infotainment experience - and we’re not even trying to talk about who can build a better driver assistance system (Tesla Autopilot vs. the world)). With that said - I don’t think Rivian is going to let themselves enter the market with obvious defects in any of those areas. With Rivian, the focus isn’t on self-driving or driver assistance - so I don’t think they will let that hold them up.

I have read about Rivian IPO, and I wonder if they are not going public yet because of the requirement to be more forthcoming with investors. That would make sense. It could be like Nikola all over again. So until launch gets closer, staying private and being able to remain silent to all but the handful of private investors is probably smart.
For context, you're also discounting the massive challenges that Tesla has at the time of the S. Rivian has a lot of challenges as well, but the EV ecosystem is much more mature now (thanks to Tesla and others). At this point it comes down to how much you trust Rivian. I trust them to starting deliveries within a couple of months of their "official" post-covid date (So June + some startup issues). If you think they're two or three years out still, then there's obviously a different understanding on your end, and it sounds like you're better off grabbing another vehicle in the interim for your own sanity at a minimum.
 
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I personally feel it is all of the above type scenario (with specifics of what is delaying them).

Infotainment = look at the infotainment performance in the Mach-E. Ford isn’t alone here. Volvo as well. Tons of examples of how delivering an infotainment system on par with Audi or Tesla is easier said then done
Build quality = Tesla still can’t figure out how to build vehicles, and they have built hundreds of thousands of them. Original Audi E-Tron had a lot of unhappy customers
Fire hazard = Even the established automakers can’t figure this out. Tesla has been mostly lucky, but still has their own tattered track record with fires
EV Charging Performance / range woes = Ford has had pretty good luck here, but their charging performance still doesn’t live up to what is advertised

I don’t expect Rivian will get a pass on any of these areas, and will have the same challenges that all of these companies have had.

Based on Rivian’s eagerness to demo collapsible cookware and their vehicles off-roading capabilities, I believe it shows how thirsty & eager they are to please the public. With that - I think that if infotainment or charging performance was good to go for production release, we would know it.

The new model S isn't a *minor* refresh. They completely changed the interior, and most of the underpinnings of the car. New motors in the Plaid (at a minimum). The car has a steering yoke and no physical gear selector. The EPA ratings for Plaid didn't go up until the literal night of their first delivery at the delivery event. Safety tests went out after the new model was released. People are sitting here saying Rivian pre-emptively lied and *could not have* delivered a vehicle because they didn't pre-emptively share EPA ratings or *details* around charging speed

What you're describing is a level of comfort/trust with Tesla vs Rivian. But that's not the context to what I was replying to. OP's statement that I was replying to was the following. Italics added by me.



My response was that there was little information regarding the actual infotainment system coming out with the S (it did come with a new UI). People were purchasing it (specifically plaid) without any understanding of the specifics of even how to put the car into drive. Yes, there's past precedence there for a baseline of performance with the previous S, but they were still making that purchase. The same goes with EPA values. The plaid EPA values were released on... 6/14? The car was having deliveries on... 6/10 supposedly?

I referenced the S plaid because it's the most recent major release from the company that people are familiar with.

Alternatively, look at the Ioniq 5. That's due out "this fall" in the U.S. and is literally available to purchase elsewhere. There aren't official EPA numbers for it, and on Hyundai's website you only get the same sort of CGI images of the UI as what Rivian has on their website. They don't even have estimated MSRP's on their damn website.

Neither the e-tron GT or Q4 e-tron have epa range ratings either. Are we to believe that's a sign of imminent demise? Must be major issues with it coming to the U.S. since that's the case, but they're available in Europe to reviewers (Sarcasm).

Do I want more information from Rivian? Yes. I think we're on the same page there. I've been fairly blunt about that over time. BUT I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that it's impossible or particularly atypical for a manufacturer to deliver a vehicle without an infotainment walk through on their website, and official published EPA values weeks or months in advance of deliveries. We're all just nervous because they're a new manufacturer and as such are holding them to higher standards. Which I think is reasonable if framed accordingly, and not in the context of saying "we don't have this, so therefore they've been lying, and there must be massive problems with the car because of that."

Could it be that they're still working out UI issues? Sure. Could they be working our lower than expected EPA numbers? I'd be surprised, but sure. But the information that's been released so far would not have precluded them from making deliveries at the end of July.
 

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I personally feel it is all of the above type scenario (with specifics of what is delaying them).

Infotainment = look at the infotainment performance in the Mach-E. Ford isn’t alone here. Volvo as well. Tons of examples of how delivering an infotainment system on par with Audi or Tesla is easier said then done
Build quality = Tesla still can’t figure out how to build vehicles, and they have built hundreds of thousands of them. Original Audi E-Tron had a lot of unhappy customers
Fire hazard = Even the established automakers can’t figure this out. Tesla has been mostly lucky, but still has their own tattered track record with fires
EV Charging Performance / range woes = Ford has had pretty good luck here, but their charging performance still doesn’t live up to what is advertised

I don’t expect Rivian will get a pass on any of these areas, and will have the same challenges that all of these companies have had.

Based on Rivian’s eagerness to demo collapsible cookware and their vehicles off-roading capabilities, I believe it shows how thirsty & eager they are to please the public. With that - I think that if infotainment or charging performance was good to go for production release, we would know it.
Yeah, so this goes back to my point in another reply here. What you are describing is wanting more comfort with the quality of the product, and not the inability to deliver a product. Unless you have a launch edition pre-order and have been contact by a guide, you'll have plenty of time to make that decision even without another production delay.

The next question is how badly do you need a new vehicle, and how quickly would you have to have an R1S available to you such that you would regret purchasing another car in the interim. If your concerns above are addressed and you can get an R1S Q2 of 2022, is that long enough to justify an interim purchase? Q4?
 
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I am sticking with Q2-Q3 2024, that way RJ and Rivian can delight me with a vehicle in late 2023 :)

In all seriousness, I expect R1T to be especially delayed, as its first vehicle for public use. If there are charging performance issues or infotainment issues - it will impact R1T more. What will impact R1S more, IMO, will be the delays that (1) assembly line introduces. I think Rivian has recognized the challenges in scaling production w/ just one assembly line. I think existing assembly line (that isn’t used for lightweight commercial vehicles) will be used 95%+ for R1T, with a handful of R1S being delivered to one-off high profile launch edition customers (social media stars, athletes, billionaires).

R1S “mainstream” delivery will be delayed until the new manufacturing plant (or additional assembly lines) can open up. My armchair quarterback analysis of Tesla is that Tesla can’t manufacture anything with any volume, if it lacks its own assembly line. I don’t think Rivian will have better luck in this regard.

If I truly believe that second plant is necessary for R1S to make it in to non-launch edition customers, then the Q2-Q3 2024 number becomes that much more realistic.

Until then, if I want an R1S, with enough fiberglass, bondo and love from Rich Rebuilds, I can get one today. :)



For context, you're also discounting the massive challenges that Tesla has at the time of the S. Rivian has a lot of challenges as well, but the EV ecosystem is much more mature now (thanks to Tesla and others). At this point it comes down to how much you trust Rivian. I trust them to starting deliveries within a couple of months of their "official" post-covid date (So June + some startup issues). If you think they're two or three years out still, then there's obviously a different understanding on your end, and it sounds like you're better off grabbing another vehicle in the interim for your own sanity at a minimum.
 

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If you think they're two or three years out still, then there's obviously a different understanding on your end, and it sounds like you're better off grabbing another vehicle in the interim for your own sanity at a minimum.
Agree with this. Also, the Telsa comparison is lazy as there are very different circumstances around each.

Telsa deserves a lot of praise as they are the only new US car company that's been by any measure successful that has started in the last 50 some years and they kick started EV's.

But their situation at start up and even now is entirely different than Rivian's. Rivian's goals (outside of make EV's) are very different than Telsa's at start-up and even today.
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