Happy with the Truck, But….

[the long way downunder]

I’m not going to excuse a basic QC issue with the drive train, but I guess I don’t understand how this can cause the vehicle to crash. My understanding is that this failure essentially disconnects one wheel from its motor so the vehicle should be controllable if this happens at speed. The half shaft may be flopping around making a lot of noise but it shouldn’t be like a drive shaft front U-joint failure on a front engine RWD car which can result in a pole vault effect. It isn’t even like the issue where the suspension falls apart because the fasteners weren’t properly torqued.

I think a better understanding of the logic behind what triggers turtle mode and what happens after the vehicle enters turtle mode at high speed would help.

I’m guessing that when the vehicle senses a speed mismatch between a motor and the wheel it is powering it triggers the turtle warning and mode. I’m sure other conditions can trigger this, too.

Has anyone gotten the turtle mode at highway speed and, if so, does the vehicle gracefully slow down or does it slow/stop rapidly?

If it does the rapid slow/stop then I agree with @the long way downunder and this is a serious safety issue. If it displays something like “Drive unit failure: Power limited, pull over when safe!” and safely reduces the vehicle speed then this seems no riskier than running out of gas in an ICE car.

Does any of this match up with what people are seeing?

edit: missed a couple words

If a shaft is that loose, it can either escape completely or destroy the CV joint, then you've got a shaft rotating at road speed with the leverage and power of the motor or the wheel, taking out the suspension, puncturing the battery, anything it can find on its way …
My R1T has done 4000 miles, with no apparent defects, but it's going in next month (yep, two month wait to get service) for an axle bolt that's a known production failure. I'll be asking them for a thorough nut-and-bolt with emphasis on this example.
As for turtle mode, it's amongst the idiocy of "safety" mechanisms … that protect the vehicle, not the occupants. There should always be a button on the dash that means "ignore all errors" so the driver can maintain control of the vehicle (and not get stuck in a freeway lane, not get hit by cross traffic at an intersection, drive away from a forest fire, etc.)

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[Milo]

The turtle mode came on after exiting the freeway, and I adjusted the Drive mode to All Purposed, the service suspension soon came on after picking up the truck and driving it home. I’m guessing the drive shaft was on still connected coming off the line. But since I was switching drive modes (Highest to lowest), I think then when it disconnected from the motor.

The Support team did offer a rental, but I’m not getting one.

I think this is the second rental me in this forum with a Drive shaft concerned.

 

[SoCal Rob]

If a shaft is that loose, it can either escape completely or destroy the CV joint, then you've got a shaft rotating at road speed with the leverage and power of the motor or the wheel, taking out the suspension, puncturing the battery, anything it can find on its way …
My R1T has done 4000 miles, with no apparent defects, but it's going in next month (yep, two month wait to get service) for an axle bolt that's a known production failure. I'll be asking them for a thorough nut-and-bolt with emphasis on this example.
As for turtle mode, it's amongst the idiocy of "safety" mechanisms … that protect the vehicle, not the occupants. There should always be a button on the dash that means "ignore all errors" so the driver can maintain control of the vehicle (and not get stuck in a freeway lane, not get hit by cross traffic at an intersection, drive away from a forest fire, etc.)

Either I don't understand what you're writing or you seem to be arguing with yourself.

I asked how this failure can cause the vehicle to crash and you came back with the shaft rotating at high speed which I thought I explained I understood in my previous post when I described the half shaft flopping around. I completely understand that it can make a fearsome amount of noise and possibly cause other damage in the process, but from what I've read I'm not seeing this leading to an immediate crash assuming the driver does something to pull over quickly.

Assuming you're correct that the disconnected shaft can really take out the suspension, puncture the battery, etc., then why argue against turtle mode? I thought this mode was designed to keep the vehicle controllable and drivable at significantly reduced speeds to get to a safe place to pull over. This should prevent exactly the damage you're saying is possible with a half-shaft failure which you say could cause a crash. Does turtle mode work that way? If it does then it seems to protect the people from the dangers you're describing but you want to allow people to override it.

I promise you that I am no stranger to bone-headed failure modes. Our Land Rover will drop the air suspension to the bump stops if it detects any fault with the system it determines to be serious. This can leave people stranded if off-road in a location which can only be exited in anything other than the lowest suspension height. Unless I'm misunderstanding what people can do in turtle mode (pull over safely, just slowly) I think Rivian did a better job with this than Land Rover did with suspension issues.

Regarding an "ignore all errors" button, I understand the desire but the reality is that the potential liability is so high I doubt that any manufacturer would permit such a thing. If someone uses that and ends up crashing because of an issue they didn't foresee (or did foresee and chose to ignore for their own reasons), the automaker will be sued and asked why they allowed the driver to force the vehicle into proceeding after the vehicle determined it was no longer safe to operate. I think it's a safe bet that a driver involved in a crash like this would say something along the lines of, "I figured the vehicle wouldn't let me do something that wasn't safe."

As far as I know, all manufacturers selling goods in the U.S. minimize liability and potential litigation whenever and however they can. The best I could see for this is an "ignore all errors" mode which could only be activated remotely by a service representative after discussion with the driver (video call?) and probably as a failsafe switch: the remote service person has to keep it activated and any loss of connectivity with the remote service person would immediately put the vehicle back in turtle mode. That wouldn't help adventurers away from cell service and it could still be deemed too risky by Rivian's legal department, but it should at least reduce liability, so maybe better than nothing?

No matter what powers them, virtually all modern cars will prohibit drivers from doing certain things which older cars couldn't/wouldn't prevent. This ranges from preventing the vehicle from starting without the clutch depressed on a manual transmission car to not letting people disable ABS and/or traction control to drastically reducing performance or killing the engine entirely because of an emissions-related error. Rivian isn't unique in this regard.

 

[the long way downunder]

Either I don't understand what you're writing or you seem to be arguing with yourself.

I asked how this failure can cause the vehicle to crash and you came back with the shaft rotating at high speed which I thought I explained I understood in my previous post when I described the half shaft flopping around. I completely understand that it can make a fearsome amount of noise and possibly cause other damage in the process, but from what I've read I'm not seeing this leading to an immediate crash assuming the driver does something to pull over quickly.

Assuming you're correct that the disconnected shaft can really take out the suspension, puncture the battery, etc., then why argue against turtle mode? I thought this mode was designed to keep the vehicle controllable and drivable at significantly reduced speeds to get to a safe place to pull over. This should prevent exactly the damage you're saying is possible with a half-shaft failure which you say could cause a crash. Does turtle mode work that way? If it does then it seems to protect the people from the dangers you're describing but you want to allow people to override it.

I promise you that I am no stranger to bone-headed failure modes. Our Land Rover will drop the air suspension to the bump stops if it detects any fault with the system it determines to be serious. This can leave people stranded if off-road in a location which can only be exited in anything other than the lowest suspension height. Unless I'm misunderstanding what people can do in turtle mode (pull over safely, just slowly) I think Rivian did a better job with this than Land Rover did with suspension issues.

Regarding an "ignore all errors" button, I understand the desire but the reality is that the potential liability is so high I doubt that any manufacturer would permit such a thing. If someone uses that and ends up crashing because of an issue they didn't foresee (or did foresee and chose to ignore for their own reasons), the automaker will be sued and asked why they allowed the driver to force the vehicle into proceeding after the vehicle determined it was no longer safe to operate. I think it's a safe bet that a driver involved in a crash like this would say something along the lines of, "I figured the vehicle wouldn't let me do something that wasn't safe."

As far as I know, all manufacturers selling goods in the U.S. minimize liability and potential litigation whenever and however they can. The best I could see for this is an "ignore all errors" mode which could only be activated remotely by a service representative after discussion with the driver (video call?) and probably as a failsafe switch: the remote service person has to keep it activated and any loss of connectivity with the remote service person would immediately put the vehicle back in turtle mode. That wouldn't help adventurers away from cell service and it could still be deemed too risky by Rivian's legal department, but it should at least reduce liability, so maybe better than nothing?

No matter what powers them, virtually all modern cars will prohibit drivers from doing certain things which older cars couldn't/wouldn't prevent. This ranges from preventing the vehicle from starting without the clutch depressed on a manual transmission car to not letting people disable ABS and/or traction control to drastically reducing performance or killing the engine entirely because of an emissions-related error. Rivian isn't unique in this regard.
"or you seem to be arguing with yourself"
You should realize you lost me at this sentence.

 

[SoCal Rob]

"or you seem to be arguing with yourself"
You should realize you lost me at this sentence.

Here’s the summary:

1. You wrote that the half-shaft issue is so dangerous that it could cause a crash.

2. I observed that turtle mode should minimize the chance of damage from half-shafts flailing if that is truly a potential problem.

3. You wrote that people should be able to override turtle mode. If you’re correct in 1, above, the ignore errors mode you want puts people in the danger you’re concerned about.

So from my perspective you’ve argued in both directions: This issue is a danger we need to protect people from! and People should be able to override the protections built into the vehicles!

I hope that helps.

 

[SASSquatch]

If I was taking delivery at the factory (which I asked to do and was declined …) I think I'd bring tools, torque wrenches, jack, stand, and a crawler … pull the inspection panels and start a "nut and bolt" …

If and when I take delivery at the factory, I might have to pay you to be my R1T inspector. The R1T is expensive as a lot of houses and you pay to inspect those!

 

[the long way downunder]

If and when I take delivery at the factory, I might have to pay you to be my R1T inspector. The R1T is expensive as a lot of houses and you pay to inspect those!

I would certainly advocate taking a "check-list" and an OCD friend. I've bought a few Teslas, so I've learned the ways of buying "startup" vehicles. Fortunately, they've all be defect free, but we got used to the process over the years. Aside from the latest check-list and notes from the forums, just take a break, get a complimentary coffee, get the paperwork checked (there's potential for mistakes that are easily corrected but difficult to resolve once signed and recorded.) It's a real thing that the second time you look at a car (or a house, or a relationship) you see more of the details … : )

But I'm not the building inspector type, I'd just look at it and sign the iPad … that's what I did … in the rain, as it was being backed off a flatbed in the street behind my house … "I'll take it" … : )

It would have had to have had a really glaring problem for me to reject it. I took delivery in March. Back then, there was no information, just the assumption that almost anything could be trouble. Fortunately, I got a good one. Even the power tonneau still works; it clunks in and out, but it works. About the worst thing on my R1T is the tailgate doesn't close flush with the body line on the driver side. I can hardly sleep at nights … kidding!

I used to be a partner owner in a race shop. Every new car (factory built or secondary market purchase) that came in was immediately "nut and bolt" inspected before we'd touch it, let alone prep it for going to the track. Document everything, "scrutineer" as if preparing for competition, oil sample test, start the "file" on the car so the owner knew what they had. People are fallible (some more than others.) It's all a matter of how we handle the faults and defects. I think Rivian could offer some sort of "adventure preparation" service for a modest fee, say $1000, to go over the car pre-purchase, scrutinize, full QA from every hardware and electrical to software. I think it's a win-win for customers who want to take deliver and set off on a trip with confidence nothing preventable will go wrong.

 

[Prime]

I would certainly advocate taking a "check-list" and an OCD friend. I've bought a few Teslas, so I've learned the ways of buying "startup" vehicles. Fortunately, they've all be defect free, but we got used to the process over the years. Aside from the latest check-list and notes from the forums, just take a break, get a complimentary coffee, get the paperwork checked (there's potential for mistakes that are easily corrected but difficult to resolve once signed and recorded.) It's a real thing that the second time you look at a car (or a house, or a relationship) you see more of the details … : )

But I'm not the building inspector type, I'd just look at it and sign the iPad … that's what I did … in the rain, as it was being backed off a flatbed in the street behind my house … "I'll take it" … : )

It would have had to have had a really glaring problem for me to reject it. I took delivery in March. Back then, there was no information, just the assumption that almost anything could be trouble. Fortunately, I got a good one. Even the power tonneau still works; it clunks in and out, but it works. About the worst thing on my R1T is the tailgate doesn't close flush with the body line on the driver side. I can hardly sleep at nights … kidding!

I used to be a partner owner in a race shop. Every new car (factory built or secondary market purchase) that came in was immediately "nut and bolt" inspected before we'd touch it, let alone prep it for going to the track. Document everything, "scrutineer" as if preparing for competition, oil sample test, start the "file" on the car so the owner knew what they had. People are fallible (some more than others.) It's all a matter of how we handle the faults and defects. I think Rivian could offer some sort of "adventure preparation" service for a modest fee, say $1000, to go over the car pre-purchase, scrutinize, full QA from every hardware and electrical to software. I think it's a win-win for customers who want to take deliver and set off on a trip with confidence nothing preventable will go wrong.

Shouldn’t this be the standard of buying every new car/truck? Why would I pay $1k to have my brand new truck re-inspected by the company that sold it to me?

 

[Olsonsolar]

Shouldn’t this be the standard of buying every new car/truck? Why would I pay $1k to have my brand new truck re-inspected by the company that sold it to me?

No Sh-t

 

[NooterIA]

This particular case may be an isolated issue, but the numerous forum posts regarding CV half shaft “tocking” related service requests on R1 vehicles definitely have my attention.

I had mobile support here last week and I had the "tocking" and lots of it. I don't know exactly what the tech did but the "tocking" is completely gone as of now. Sounds like it won't stay that way for long based upon others feedback on this forum but for now I'm happy. The tech did explain to me that when he was with Tesla he seen the same flex or play in the spline/gears that ultimatley led to squeaking or tocking.

As to the issue the OP threw on here, unreal. I'd be hot. How something like this makes it off the floor and in your driveway as is just blows my mind.

 

[the long way downunder]

Shouldn’t this be the standard of buying every new car/truck? Why would I pay $1k to have my brand new truck re-inspected by the company that sold it to me?

So you're saying you wouldn't pay $1000+ for the Rivian Overland service? : )

The standard for consumers should be a realistic expectation of value for money, quality and a reliably satisfactory ownership experience, except, it's not.

Putting a fee on the table would bring the facts out into the open; but it's done less blatantly than a simple fee.

Whether it's Tesla or Rivian, Ferrari or McLaren, GM or Ford, the practical reality is, buying any new car, you're rolling the dice … maybe you get "lucky" and have an enjoyable ownership experience, maybe you end up at these forums asking for advice on how to handle a major problem.

Why do people buy AppleCare?

If the phone or Mac is going to be 100% for sure and "it just works" then AppleCare is wasted; no need for improved quality of service or extended coverage.

It's all a racket. It's the consumer experience where so-called "undefined risk" is overpriced. There's an undefined risk of getting a vehicle with problems. It's just not usually done with a blatant fee like AppleCare or my proposed $1000 for a "good one" fee. So I'd "market" the fee as value-add.

A closer example is Lexus. The value proposition of Lexus is to pay a (large) premium for a Toyota in order to be assured of a quality product and satisfactory ownership experience – Lexus started as a business model that caused the venerable Mercedes to reinvent their business to bring up their standards, to improve the ownership experience. I think people would pay for a Mercedes or Lexus ownership experience as an up front fee when purchasing their Rivian.

Rivian wouldn't have to be so blatant as to just put a checkbox on the order form "$1000 to get a good one" … it would be value-add. For example, if you buy the Rivian R1T Overland, the vehicle is "upgraded" with something like say the skid plate (is that even an option any more?) and this (very expensive) upgrade comes with the vehicle going to a side line for final production.

Porsche does the same thing with "Exclusive" … bespoke, hand finished vehicles.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/exclusive-manufaktur/
For a considerable premium, you're assured of your Porsche meeting your expectations of excellence.

Like the underbody protection, some would say "never gonna need it" and "save" the $2000 (or whatever price, I forget) and others like me would be back-and-forth (in utter futility, it turns out) with the "guide" (in reality, the sales closure order-taker) trying to get things like the winch and a stout rack, frunk fridge, drop-down 180º tailgate, etc.

Creating an "Overland" facility would also put in place the knowledge and resources for a quality and defect "escalation" team to jump on any vehicle with trouble and (remotely) guide the local service crew through a "fixed it first time" process that would see these defective vehicles that seem to be happening in greater numbers (at least based on the months of backlog at the service centers.)

 

[Prime]

So you're saying you wouldn't pay $1000+ for the Rivian Overland service? : )

The standard for consumers should be a realistic expectation of value for money, quality and a reliably satisfactory ownership experience, except, it's not.

Putting a fee on the table would bring the facts out into the open; but it's done less blatantly than a simple fee.

Whether it's Tesla or Rivian, Ferrari or McLaren, GM or Ford, the practical reality is, buying any new car, you're rolling the dice … maybe you get "lucky" and have an enjoyable ownership experience, maybe you end up at these forums asking for advice on how to handle a major problem.

Why do people buy AppleCare?

If the phone or Mac is going to be 100% for sure and "it just works" then AppleCare is wasted; no need for improved quality of service or extended coverage.

It's all a racket. It's the consumer experience where so-called "undefined risk" is overpriced. There's an undefined risk of getting a vehicle with problems. It's just not usually done with a blatant fee like AppleCare or my proposed $1000 for a "good one" fee. So I'd "market" the fee as value-add.

A closer example is Lexus. The value proposition of Lexus is to pay a (large) premium for a Toyota in order to be assured of a quality product and satisfactory ownership experience – Lexus started as a business model that caused the venerable Mercedes to reinvent their business to bring up their standards, to improve the ownership experience. I think people would pay for a Mercedes or Lexus ownership experience as an up front fee when purchasing their Rivian.

Rivian wouldn't have to be so blatant as to just put a checkbox on the order form "$1000 to get a good one" … it would be value-add. For example, if you buy the Rivian R1T Overland, the vehicle is "upgraded" with something like say the skid plate (is that even an option any more?) and this (very expensive) upgrade comes with the vehicle going to a side line for final production.

Porsche does the same thing with "Exclusive" … bespoke, hand finished vehicles.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/exclusive-manufaktur/
For a considerable premium, you're assured of your Porsche meeting your expectations of excellence.

Like the underbody protection, some would say "never gonna need it" and "save" the $2000 (or whatever price, I forget) and others like me would be back-and-forth (in utter futility, it turns out) with the "guide" (in reality, the sales closure order-taker) trying to get things like the winch and a stout rack, frunk fridge, drop-down 180º tailgate, etc.

Creating an "Overland" facility would also put in place the knowledge and resources for a quality and defect "escalation" team to jump on any vehicle with trouble and (remotely) guide the local service crew through a "fixed it first time" process that would see these defective vehicles that seem to be happening in greater numbers (at least based on the months of backlog at the service centers.)

Apple care is not the best example. People buy it because they break their phones by dropping them and spill coffee on their laptops. I doubt anyone buys apple care thinking the product will fail with normal use.

I just disagree with the concept. When I buy a new car I don’t feel like I’m throwing the dice on ownership experience. I do my research and buy what I find (generally) reliable, example always a Lexus owner. With my recent purchase Tesla and Rivian, I expect some problems but I also expect good QC and even better service as these car companies are trying to set themselves apart from old school car manufacturers AND like genesis today or the old Lexus when they first came around in the 90s, incredible service experiences is what keeps the company alive because people keep recommending it to family and friends regardless of issues that may require repairs. Not saying it’s ok Rivian has these major suspension issues or tonneau cover issues, but I’m hopeful they’ll figure it out like Tesla did during their initial car ramp with Model 3 and Y.

 

[Mysta]

This is absolutely unbelievable as it continues to happen with brand new vehicles just 2 days after delivery!

I think even worse is it's getting to the point of being a cover up by Rivian's 100% lack of any public acknowledgement of a life threatening failure since VIN 1,000 right through VIN's made today.

NHTSA will step in soon, and I urge everyone who's had a failure to report it immediately to the NHTSA as this is a catastrophic failure that could cause a life threatening situation.

" Filing a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) takes only 10 minutes and can be submitted online or over the phone -- Monday-Friday 8am to 8pm at (888) 327-4236; TTY: (800) 424-9153. It's important for you to share the information about your vehicle to improve the safety for other owners. "

Enough is enough.. time to call out Rivian on this issue!

Definitely however Teslas still have this issue in Model X so it doesn't give me a ton of hope. Power and weight, may not be a thing that can be solved without dialing back power.

 

[the long way downunder]

Definitely however Teslas still have this issue in Model X so it doesn't give me a ton of hope. Power and weight, may not be a thing that can be solved without dialing back power.

The Model X problem is a design flaw.
The Rivian problem appears to be a production quality failure.

I've had two Xs, the both had the problem of spline noise. If you drive around the problem (don't use low suspension, don't use maximal acceleration) the X is fine.

I have one R1T, it doesn't have the drive shaft problem (vin 1xxx delivered in March) so I'm guessing this is a – very serious – problem with production quality, not a design flaw.

But I'm here on this keyboard with a sample size of 1 … this could well be a voluntary recall unfolding.

 

[SASSquatch]

The Model X problem is a design flaw.
The Rivian problem appears to be a production quality failure.

I've had two Xs, the both had the problem of spline noise. If you drive around the problem (don't use low suspension, don't use maximal acceleration) the X is fine.

I have one R1T, it doesn't have the drive shaft problem (vin 1xxx delivered in March) so I'm guessing this is a – very serious – problem with production quality, not a design flaw.

But I'm here on this keyboard with a sample size of 1 … this could well be a voluntary recall unfolding.

I think you hit the nail on the head. When you are dealing with a new OEM who is designing and building their first mass production vehicle you are absolutely bound to experience issues as they work through their process.

For that reason, I think inspecting your new vehicle is merited - however, I am not sure I trust Rivian to do the inspection at that point. That is where an inspection service - think Munro trained type folks - could really provide an exceptional service. They can act as a subject matter expert as the go-between and provide Rivian - or whoever the OEM is - with a comprehensive report of what is wrong and what needs fixed.

Kind of like a home inspection - which is where I started.

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