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RWerksman

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Hello my dudes - there seems to be a lot of speculation here over the last day or so regarding how open superchargers are. Some folks are assuming that because the terminology has changed inside of the Tesla app, and because Ford has officially launched, that means all EVs will now work.

It's been confirmed, that even if you have a physical adapter, you cannot charge your non-Ford CCS1 EV until that brand has officially launched. For instance, if you have a Rivian on March 1st, and if you have one of the A2Z adapters, you cannot charge -- even if you enter it into the Tesla app as an F150 Lightning.

Kyle O'Conner (of house O'Conner, first of his name) is speculating that it's a certificate exchange during authentication that is purposefully required in order to charge.



S00n, i guess.
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I am suspicious of Kyle’s motives making this announcement in a simple tweet instead of a 5 hour livestream🤔
 
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RWerksman

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I am suspicious of Kyle’s motives making this announcement in a simple tweet instead of a 5 hour livestream🤔
I will Ed from New Jersey, Men's Warehouse, George Foreman Guarantee that he'll make a 20 Minute plus video out of this at some point.
 

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Well I mean yeah, that's what I and many others have been saying since the June 2023 announcement that Rivian signed an agreement with Tesla and that adapters would be provided.

Use of the superchargers by CCS vehicles requires not only an adapter but also "permission" from Tesla - if it were just an adapter then *every* brand CCS vehicle would be able to use the superchargers, so why would *any* of the manufacturers need to sign an agreement with Tesla for access?

Having NACS is not the same thing as having access to superchargers. Those are two entirely separate things. Even a vehicle with a native NACS port won't have access to the superchargers until there is some agreement signed with Tesla and until Tesla has turned on that access.
 

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I imagine that once the transition to NACS has finished (or at minimum all the automakers who have signed agreements have onboarded and shipped out all their adapters,) that Tesla will open it up to *ALL* CCS vehicles, and sell the adapters directly for use by people with cars that didn't get an adapter provided by their manufacturer. (Like a Stellantis vehicle, or older EVs that their manufacturers haven't said will be "approved" like the small number of Ford Focus Electrics that shipped with the optional CCS port. Or Fisker, who may go out of business before they start shipping adapters.)

Once the "signed deals" are contracted, anyone will be able to use it via the "Charge Your Non-Tesla" in the app and an adapter.

At least, that's my assumption. Tesla doesn't want to leave money on the table.
 

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Shrug. If Tesla were inclined to open things to everybody they would have / could have done that years ago. Like they did in Europe because they had to. Or they could have gone straight to selling adapters to everyone or putting Magic Docks on every charger. All of these things (and variations of these things) would have earned Tesla a lot of money as well as contributing to EV adoption everywhere.

But Tesla is running a business and they seem to be pretty good at squeezing every last dollar, and I have no insight as to what they're thinking - I only see what they're doing. Maybe in the long term this will change, but for now they are getting a lot of traction by leveraging other manufactures into agreements to use the superchargers.
 

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Kyle O'Conner (of house O'Conner, first of his name) is speculating that it's a certificate exchange during authentication that is purposefully required in order to charge.
I really doubt it's a certificate exchange and more likely based on a MAC address or something else inherent to Ford's implementation of the CCS communication protocol. Otherwise, only Fords with the software update would be able to charge through the Tesla app, which has already been disproven.

This is important because it means that we may not have to wait for a Rivian software update when Tesla opens the network to Rivian.
 

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Hello my dudes - there seems to be a lot of speculation here over the last day or so regarding how open superchargers are. Some folks are assuming that because the terminology has changed inside of the Tesla app, and because Ford has officially launched, that means all EVs will now work.

It's been confirmed, that even if you have a physical adapter, you cannot charge your non-Ford CCS1 EV until that brand has officially launched. For instance, if you have a Rivian on March 1st, and if you have one of the A2Z adapters, you cannot charge -- even if you enter it into the Tesla app as an F150 Lightning.

Kyle O'Conner (of house O'Conner, first of his name) is speculating that it's a certificate exchange during authentication that is purposefully required in order to charge.



S00n, i guess.
This is the confirmation I’ve been waiting for. Thank you.

If it was CAN traffic it would be easier to sniff. Power line communication is trickier.

Soon enough, I suppose!
 

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like the small number of Ford Focus Electrics that shipped with the optional CCS port. Or Fisker, who may go out of business before they start shipping adapters.)

At least, that's my assumption. Tesla doesn't want to leave money on the table.
This will take engineering resources to make sure everything works.

Tesla no longer supports their original 2008-12 Tesla roadster. You have to go to an independent shop to get it fixed.

I doubt Tesla expends engineering resources on oddball boutique electrics so they can use the Supercharger Network.

People spent ~120k 2010 US dollars to buy Tesla roadsters. Tesla never bothered to onboard them onto the Supercharger Network.

GM doesn't want to assign a single engineer to make sure Chevy Spark EVs can charge on EVgo or EA stations smoothly.
 

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Im a bit confused, NACS claimed to be open standard, Tesla officially opens their network, Car manufacturers need to ask permission to use Tesla chargers? Doesn't sound open to me.

I wonder if we will see Supercharger jailbreak. like with iPhones back in the day
 

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Im a bit confused, NACS claimed to be open standard, Tesla officially opens their network, Car manufacturers need to ask permission to use Tesla chargers? Doesn't sound open to me.
Exactly.

It's like years ago when Discover credit cards weren't accepted everywhere. Yes, the card was a standard size and fit in the card reader, yes the magnetic stripe was there and encoded properly according to standard, but most point of sale terminals would not authorize a Discover transaction because their payment network didn't support Discover. That's not exactly the situation with the Tesla superchargers, but you get the idea I hope.

Just because you can plug in doesn't mean the Tesla supercharger will give you a charge - this part of the transaction isn't covered by the NACS specifications.
 
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RWerksman

RWerksman

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Im a bit confused, NACS claimed to be open standard, Tesla officially opens their network, Car manufacturers need to ask permission to use Tesla chargers? Doesn't sound open to me.

I wonder if we will see Supercharger jailbreak. like with iPhones back in the day
The connector standard is open. The network is not. Kinda like the CCS1 standard and the Rivian Adventure Network is ... for now.
 

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Well not exactly like CCS1 and the RAN. The CCS standard does cover this communication, so all you have to do is pass the required data to authorize a transaction. The charger companies bend over backwards to allow anyone to use their chargers - that's how they make money. The only reason you would be denied a charge is if your payment method failed.

Can you tell me what the required data is to authorize a transaction at a Tesla supercharger?

The RAN is basically a network in beta testing right now, so they have restricted the participants while they develop their software and hardware to be reliable. Charging hardware and software that is proven reliable and robust has enormous value, so it makes sense for Rivian to do what they can before opening it up. Can you imagine the hit to the company if the RAN proves to be unreliable when opened up? They can't afford for that to happen. Conversely, can you imagine the bump the company will get if it can land a large contract to sell these proven, reliable RAN chargers to some other network (EA anyone)?

Once the RAN is opened up (which has been part of the written, public plan for many years) then *any* CCS vehicle will be able to use it. Even Teslas with a CCS adapter. No special agreement with Rivian will be required. Rivian will not be discriminating against other brands when it opens the RAN. Tesla is like 10 years past sorting out the reliability issues in their proprietary network, but they have left it closed since - a closed system was always part of the Tesla business plan because it was meant in part to sell Teslas, not to encourage other manufacturers to compete in the EV space.

So no, not exactly a good comparison. Tesla has a proprietary network that they are just now starting to allow some others to use, but only if they contract with Tesla for access. This is the private country club model where you have to be accepted as a member before you can use the golf course. The CCS network, on the other hand, is more like the public golf course where anyone can play if they pay their green fees.

You can argue that one model is better than the other from many different perspectives, but they ARE different.
 
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RWerksman

RWerksman

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I'm just stating that both the CCS1 and NACS are open standards, and the Supercharger and RAN are closed networks. That's why I posted:

The connector standard is open. The network is not. Kinda like the CCS1 standard and the Rivian Adventure Network
One cannot plug in his Ford to the RAN and charge, despite being a being physically compatible CCS1 vehicle.
One cannot plug in his Rivian (with an adapter) to the Supercharger network and charge, despite being physically compatible.

The point of this thread was public service to folks who were considering ordering a NACS to CCS adapter through A2Z or similar with hopes that it would just work. Alas, it will not.

There is nothing more to my message here. The comparison was for illustrative purposes only, and I am not diving deeper into the why.
 

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Well I mean yeah, that's what I and many others have been saying since the June 2023 announcement that Rivian signed an agreement with Tesla and that adapters would be provided.

Use of the superchargers by CCS vehicles requires not only an adapter but also "permission" from Tesla - if it were just an adapter then *every* brand CCS vehicle would be able to use the superchargers, so why would *any* of the manufacturers need to sign an agreement with Tesla for access?

Having NACS is not the same thing as having access to superchargers. Those are two entirely separate things. Even a vehicle with a native NACS port won't have access to the superchargers until there is some agreement signed with Tesla and until Tesla has turned on that access.
Point taken. However, I wouldn’t think Rivian would go to the expense of sending everyone a FREE adapter if all the background work wasn’t in place. I think the needed authorization to use Tesla’s SC will probably be announced once the adapter shipments begin. Makes sense to me.
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