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Great! I thought I was crazy because everyone on here loves the regen braking and I couldn't figure out how anyone could think that was a good design lol.
I will say that the R1T is the first and only EV I've ever driven but there was no 'jarring' and everything felt very natural within the first few minutes of driving. Admittedly, I didn't use the mechanical brake very much, there is very little need to ever use it, but it was a smooth implementation from my perspective.
Reading your experience made me question if you're crazy too! ?
I've lurked this thread for a bit. First off, I will say that I have only test driven a Model S, 5 or 6 years ago, so I can't speak from hands on experience on any of this. But I can speak from research I have done in the past 6 months into regenerative braking and how it works in the *Rivian*.
I found this insightful…. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/.For first-time EV buyers: I hadn't considered an EV until I heard of the R1T. It was the first EV that really spoke to me, got me excited. I placed my pre-order last July, joined this community, started looking into battery technologies and everything related to energy generation in the US preparing for EV ownership.
One of the preparation items was home charging, planning the garage, additional circuit(s), etc. The plans were all laid out in a way that I was finally convinced I would not need the max battery pack and could spend that money modernizing our home's electrical systems.
Unfortunately, recently I came to the realization that the R1T is not going to meet my needs or desires, so I reluctantly canceled my order. Instead, I bought another EV that has only ~250-mile range on a good day, and it is a sedan, not an SUV or truck. I have to admit that it was probably a great decision for us. I spent my first week with it in joy, comfort, and everything that EVs promise. Yesterday, the battery pack was down to 29%, so I went to charge it at a public Electrify America station nearby. At the same time, electricians have been in the house providing me estimates for all the work that was planned. There have been many bad stories around Electrify America, so I knew I could not rely on them for charging on a regular basis, so part of the plan at home was to install a 19.2 kWh charger, which requires a 100 amp circuit. A bit pricey, but I thought it is worth it in the long run.
The Electrify America stations (10+ of them) are within 3 mi. radius from where I live. I picked one charging cluster near a large shopping outlet, went there late evening, found the place very well lit with empty chargers. It was 150 kWh DCFC, I connected the car, opened the app, hit "Start Charger" and voila! After negotiating with the car for about 3 mins, it started charging at 99 kWh, increasing to about 103-105 for the remainder. 18 mins later I was at 70% charge, good enough, and I stopped the charge. In the meantime, I stayed in the car, warm and comfortable, checking emails, replying to text messages, having a hot coffee. The process was not only painless, but dare I say, even enjoyable.
Now I am thinking, I may not even need a home charger. Everything worked well from first connection to disconnection, I enjoyed the quiet time, was not in danger of anything, and even at only 100 kWh charging (the car can go as high as 250 kWh), it was fast enough for me.
So, if you don't have experience with EVs, like me, and are apprehensive about charging, don't be, I think we will be alright
Wish I had their gas prices.
This was not my experience either, behavior felt exactly like my Tesla where the brake pedal just adds friction and had no impact on regen behavior.
Agree on the costs if you only charge at home. The 12 cent cost assumes you spent money on a level 2 charger. Level 1 charging is unworkable if you have a big battery in my personal opinion…but I’m impatient. Residential power is cheap. Commercial power is expensive from EA and others. To the authors point the cost of commercial power can fluctuate greatly as well. To your point if you only use commercial charging solutions now is probably not the time to jump into an EV.
That's interesting. I can't remember where, but I do remember Rivian (or someone with Rivian) saying they had transitioned to removing the option to "coast" when lifting off the accelerator because it lowered the EPA range estimate, and removed regen adjustments from the brake pedal. Interested to watch the video you found when I get a chance.I've lurked this thread for a bit. First off, I will say that I have only test driven a Model S, 5 or 6 years ago, so I can't speak from hands on experience on any of this. But I can speak from research I have done in the past 6 months into regenerative braking and how it works in the *Rivian*.
From my research, both RIvian *and* Telsa Model 3 use the Bosch iBooster and the Bosch ESP hev, which is a regen/hydraulic integrated design. As such, it's incorrect to say "It is in an independent system (like Tesla's) that the car adds in friction brakes on top of 100% regen" .
With the Bosch braking system, regen and friction braking are completely integrated. It's all in the software implementation as to how it works, which is certainly determined by the vehicle manufacturer, since the regen and friction available are 100% dependent on the manufacturer's drivetrain and calipers as well as vehicle weight. Therefore, comparing RIvian and Tesla "seat feel" experiences are minimally useful.
Look at the interview below that confirms Rivian is using Bosch, and the Bosch product pages and videos that explain how it REALLY works. Enjoy!
Interview with Rivian VP of Propulsion
"Like almost all other electric and hybrid cars, Rivian also initially uses regenerative braking as the traditional brake pedal is pushed but transition to friction braking as the need for anti-speed increases as the driver pushes down farther on the brake pedal.
Like many other car makers, Rivian is using Bosch’s iBooster brake system. Even Tesla has used this system since they introduced partially-automated driving features into the Model S although Tesla has programmed it to use only friction braking when the driver steps on the pedal, presumably to guarantee the highest level of consistent braking feel."
Product page with Explanation Video
I suspect that some here will say "I don't need to watch the video, I know how it works." All I am going to say is that from reading the debate here, some don't really understand how it works. Watch the video, especially the second half as it details when the Bosch system uses regen vs. friction.
ESP hev web page
"The regenerative braking system ESP® hev for vehicles with front axle/rear axle brake circuit distribution enable a purely generative deceleration of up to 0.2 g when combined with a conventional vacuum brake booster. If the ESP® hev is combined with an iBooster, purely generative decelerations of up to 0.3 g are possible.
ESP® hev for vehicles with front axle/rear axle brake circuit distribution is based on the ESP® plus generation 9 and the use of proven standard components. The low-pressure accumulator chamber and the valve-filter principle were modified for the use of the ESP® hev system for regenerative braking. Furthermore, an improved engine control for accurate speed regulation is applied."
iBooster web page
The iBooster page has a video as well, explaining in detail how the Regenerative/Hydraulic integration works. Again, statements in this thread are contradictory to how the Bosch system works. Watch the video.
"The iBooster enables virtually full recuperation with deceleration values of up to 0.3 g when combined with ESP® hev. This is due to the iBooster’s ability to adjust the supporting force at any time in line with the hydraulic conditions by means of software controls. This covers all common braking maneuvers when driving on roads."
That article you linked to is over 3 years old (11/2018), not sure what may have changed if anything since that interview.I've lurked this thread for a bit. First off, I will say that I have only test driven a Model S, 5 or 6 years ago, so I can't speak from hands on experience on any of this. But I can speak from research I have done in the past 6 months into regenerative braking and how it works in the *Rivian*.
From my research, both RIvian *and* Telsa Model 3 use the Bosch iBooster and the Bosch ESP hev, which is a regen/hydraulic integrated design. As such, it's incorrect to say "It is in an independent system (like Tesla's) that the car adds in friction brakes on top of 100% regen" .
With the Bosch braking system, regen and friction braking are completely integrated. It's all in the software implementation as to how it works, which is certainly determined by the vehicle manufacturer, since the regen and friction available are 100% dependent on the manufacturer's drivetrain and calipers as well as vehicle weight. Therefore, comparing RIvian and Tesla "seat feel" experiences are minimally useful.
Look at the interview below that confirms Rivian is using Bosch, and the Bosch product pages and videos that explain how it REALLY works. Enjoy!
Interview with Rivian VP of Propulsion
"Like almost all other electric and hybrid cars, Rivian also initially uses regenerative braking as the traditional brake pedal is pushed but transition to friction braking as the need for anti-speed increases as the driver pushes down farther on the brake pedal.
Like many other car makers, Rivian is using Bosch’s iBooster brake system. Even Tesla has used this system since they introduced partially-automated driving features into the Model S although Tesla has programmed it to use only friction braking when the driver steps on the pedal, presumably to guarantee the highest level of consistent braking feel."
Product page with Explanation Video
I suspect that some here will say "I don't need to watch the video, I know how it works." All I am going to say is that from reading the debate here, some don't really understand how it works. Watch the video, especially the second half as it details when the Bosch system uses regen vs. friction.
ESP hev web page
"The regenerative braking system ESP® hev for vehicles with front axle/rear axle brake circuit distribution enable a purely generative deceleration of up to 0.2 g when combined with a conventional vacuum brake booster. If the ESP® hev is combined with an iBooster, purely generative decelerations of up to 0.3 g are possible.
ESP® hev for vehicles with front axle/rear axle brake circuit distribution is based on the ESP® plus generation 9 and the use of proven standard components. The low-pressure accumulator chamber and the valve-filter principle were modified for the use of the ESP® hev system for regenerative braking. Furthermore, an improved engine control for accurate speed regulation is applied."
iBooster web page
The iBooster page has a video as well, explaining in detail how the Regenerative/Hydraulic integration works. Again, statements in this thread are contradictory to how the Bosch system works. Watch the video.
"The iBooster enables virtually full recuperation with deceleration values of up to 0.3 g when combined with ESP® hev. This is due to the iBooster’s ability to adjust the supporting force at any time in line with the hydraulic conditions by means of software controls. This covers all common braking maneuvers when driving on roads."
And yet that is exactly what a Tesla does so it can't be incorrect. This is easily discernible by watching the power meter when applying the brake pedal. Perhaps if you had done that your "research" would have led you to a more realistic conclusion.
I'm assuming that what they have implemented is functionally the same as what Tesla has (and all the reports seem to be pointing in that direction). With single pedal driving you still have the option of coasting. You "simply" feather the thrust pedal to the 0 thrust point and hold it there. I put "simple" in quotes because that isn't so easy to do, at least not for a basically clumsy oaf like me. But then as you have pointed out there is really no reason to want to coast. We, rather, feather the pedal to slow us down comfortably (where that's possible).
Interesting. Watching a software display of regen tells you that regen and friction control are "independent systems"? Meanwhile, the manufacturer - Bosch - has videos and documents showing that it is an integrated system. Okaaayyyyyyy.......
Yes. If the power returned to the battery is unchanged when the friction brake is applied clearly the friction brake has no influence over the regen.
Your problem is that you are assuming that Bosch makes Tesla's braking system. It doesn't. The system described in the video and on the website bears no resemblance to the braking system in my car.
The friction brake in my Tesla adds braking on top of the regen. Period. This is not debatable. It is as plain as the fact that the car has 4 wheels. It is the way things are whether it fits your theory or not. Go drive s Tesla. If you come away from that experience thinking that friction braking is not applied on top of regen then you are not comprehending what your eyes are telling you.
Er, well, yes. It shows the status of the traction system overall but that includes the regen mode.
When it shows that the status of the regen is not influenced by the position of or pressure on the brake pedal it tells you they are not coupled. Your bio says you are engineer. You should be able to understand that.
That's right. They don't couple the brake pedal position into the regen system.
Teslas and Rivians are big heavy vehicles. As are all vehicles they are required to have an independent mechanical braking system. Vehicles this heavy need some kind of boost and there is no vacuum source to provide it in a BEV. Some other way of getting boost is needed and in these vehicles it is a device such as the iBooster. So the Tesla and Rivian each have some sort of iBooster and the Bosch unit might serve that function perfectly well. Note that the unit in the Tesla does not look anything like the ones shown ib Bosch's video but it could still be a Bosch unit. Or someone elses.
I saw some references to magazine articles and some links to Bosch's web site. I didn't see any to manufacturer's specs. Could you re-post the links to the Tesla and Rivian Docs? Thank's.
