EV tax credit increase to $12,500 in Biden's latest proposal as of 10/28

[R_1_T]

Well, probably to try and balance a budget for one. Assuming that's a goal at all. And federal income tax levels are lower than they have been historically, particularly on the high end. As are corporate income taxes.

I don't see any effort to decrease the operating budget. There's ZERO effort being made to reduce the deficit from what I can tell. The only solutions on the table involve more spending AND and increase of the debt ceiling.

Regarding you suggesting your financial success are derived all of your own hard work is disingenuous. You're ignoring that you're functioning as part of a larger system. You aren't the only thing generating that income.

I made the decisions to not go in debt. I made the decision of what field/degree to pursue. I made an intentional decision to start as a contract employee to get experience. These are not things my peers did. I would argue you're ignoring that my personal decisions impacted on where my path has lead or what my financial situation might be. Yes there's a larger system here, but somehow we see no shortage of failure out there.

If someone dropped you off in another part of the world you likely wouldn't have had that opportunity.

But I wasn't dropped in another part of the world - I am where I was intended to be.

Out of curiosity, what decade did you attend college?

90's - paid for courses as I could afford them while working almost full time. I don't see why it's relevant, as I had several coworkers in the same age range carrying student loans. I also didn't graduate with a limited/useless degree.

I already effectively pay unrealized gains on my house through property taxes. Somehow I'm not crying over that.

You're technically paying for fire, police, EMS, school system - you know services. I personally don't see much value being added by the federal government in the event they take more of my $$$. You at least get what equates to a line item invoice from the state...

And literally the cost associated with dealing with the impacts associated with crypto-currencies.

Dealing with what impacts? Servers running? That it's outside THEIR system? I fail to see a problem. Next you're going to say that precious metals are bad too.

Again, I would argue that you're significantly oversimplifying monetary policy.

Please explain it then. Simplification doesn't mean that it's wrong or that they aren't contributing factors. Audit the Federal Reserve and we might just find out what's really wrong with the financial system.

For those following along, are you not entertained?

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[demicoro]

Just read this on CNET. Looks like buying a Rvian (I'm an R1S launch customer) just became sweeter. Since Rivian is made in US, I qualify for the usual $7500+ $2500 and I believe they are built by union workers (????) and if so, I get another $2500 for a grand total of $12,500. That is Freaking awesome. And from what I understand it passed by bipartisan vote so it should make it thru Congress in time for 2022 which is when I'll most likely want the tax credits. I'm sure Audi and BMW and Porsche will be scrambling to build in US??? Not likely, but good for us Rivian beta testers.

Those of us who can afford a Rivian, do not need a tax cut... Keep the revenue for the roads!

 

[AdamsFan1983]

How is that my problem?
Why should I, or anybody else have to subsidize somebody else's purchase (through tax credits)?
Wait until you you can actually afford the vehicle you want without stretching your financial situation to the limit. It's called being responsible.

I don't understand how people think the world owes them something.

Of course that sounds good in the abstract but you’re being a bit pedantic.

Every government, in every country of the world has some form a subsidy for some form of product/service. I’d be willing to agree with you if your argument was about how stupid it is to provide government incentives for ev adoption while at the same time providing favorable tax incentives, and comparatively cheap drilling leases to oil producers; but as it stands your rhyming about an abstract political philosophy that will NEVER come to fruition.

 

[R_1_T]

Of course that sounds good in the abstract but you’re being a bit pedantic.

Every government, in every country of the world has some form a subsidy for some form of product/service. I’d be willing to agree with you if your argument was about how stupid it is to provide government incentives for ev adoption while at the same time providing favorable tax incentives, and comparatively cheap drilling leases to oil producers; but as it stands your rhyming about an abstract political philosophy that will NEVER come to fruition.

My opinion is consistent. Which is to completely overhaul the tax code. Simplify it. No loopholes, no credits, no favorites being played. Basic fiscal responsibility and transparency would fundamentally change the system. This won't happen - it's broken and largely exists for it's own benefit.
Members of congress can legally trade in advance of policy decision, while the IRS wants to know when we make $600 transactions. Yeah, nothing to see here...

 

[RexRemus]

Is this discussion even relevant at this point? It seems to have degenerated to having very little at all to do with Rivian or anything constructive. Bottom line is at this point, we know nothing and it's all speculation. Passing judgement (either way) on who should or shouldn't be buying a vehicle isn't informative or constructive. Almost feel like this should just be archived so we can all move on with our lives

 

[kommonplace]

we know nothing and it's all speculation

The tagline for these (and most) forums.

 

[Sgt Beavis]

Manchin says he isn't yet on board with the Build Back Better bill.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-november-agenda-not-faint-heart-2021-11-01/

Basically, he's relying on estimates from a Penn Wharton budget model. That model shows the bill being $3.9Trillion over 10 years while Biden's numbers are $1.75Trillion. I'm not sure who to believe on this one.

Here is the Penn Wharton budget numbers. Pretty easy to read.
https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/estimates/2021/11/1/reconciliation-framework

Here is the article that pointed me to the budget model.
https://news.yahoo.com/manchin-trashes-social-spending-package-002625834.html

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Basically, he's relying on estimates from a Penn Wharton budget model. That model shows the bill being $3.9Trillion over 10 years while Biden's numbers are $1.75Trillion. I'm not sure who to believe on this one.

Without taking one side or the other, isn't it fair to say that neither will likely be true? Budgets will be re-negotiated and changed many times over that 10 year span.

 

[jplblue]

Manchin says he isn't yet on board with the Build Back Better bill.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-november-agenda-not-faint-heart-2021-11-01/

Basically, he's relying on estimates from a Penn Wharton budget model. That model shows the bill being $3.9Trillion over 10 years while Biden's numbers are $1.75Trillion. I'm not sure who to believe on this one.

Here is the Penn Wharton budget numbers. Pretty easy to read.
https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/estimates/2021/11/1/reconciliation-framework

Here is the article that pointed me to the budget model.
https://news.yahoo.com/manchin-trashes-social-spending-package-002625834.html

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but is the Wharton model just ignoring the revenue side *that's reflected in the same chart*?

 

[Kidentist]

Those of us who can afford a Rivian, do not need a tax cut... Keep the revenue for the roads!

You might change your mind if you live in "Taxington" State......

 

[Sgt Beavis]

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but is the Wharton model just ignoring the revenue side *that's reflected in the same chart*?

No, it just doesn't give grand totals between the two.

 

[Trekkie]

That's insensitive and ignores that people have unique financial situations.

Not everyone can afford ANY vehicle. They may want XYZ but can only afford up to $$$. They try to get the best they can within that budget. $7,500 is enough spread to make an aspirational purchase not make sense, for some.

I said 'personally' not 'everyone is an idiot'. I will buy the EV I want, if I get $7500 back, neat, but relying on it in my instance would be a fools errand because the ability for our gridlocked us vs them elected officials will be unable to get jack done, and then the next guy could jump in and remove it all, then back date it and demand we pay it back too. To 'own the <insert favorite political insult>' who bought the EVs in the first place.

 

[pc500]

Manchin says he isn't yet on board with the Build Back Better bill.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-congress-november-agenda-not-faint-heart-2021-11-01/

Basically, he's relying on estimates from a Penn Wharton budget model. That model shows the bill being $3.9Trillion over 10 years while Biden's numbers are $1.75Trillion. I'm not sure who to believe on this one.

Here is the Penn Wharton budget numbers. Pretty easy to read.
https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/estimates/2021/11/1/reconciliation-framework

Here is the article that pointed me to the budget model.
https://news.yahoo.com/manchin-trashes-social-spending-package-002625834.html

I think he's basically assuming these "one year extensions" of what started as a pandemic program will turn into permanent social programs, and is setting his budget accordingly.

 

[DucRider]

The bill as it is proposed today will put at least $2B into Tecla's bank account in 2022 alone.

Tesla will raise the price (by an amount slightly less than the $8K incentive) on both the Model 3 and Model Y. They have demonstrated this in the past, and have always employed dynamic pricing. The end result will be a slightly lower price to the consumer (after the credit). Maybe $3K out of the $8K. Giving Tesla $5K net for every 3 and Y they can crank out (400K? 500K?) is not going to result in more EVs on the road and not how I want my tax dollars spent.
Will Chevy keep the Bolt MSRP @ $31K once a $12K incentive becomes available? I doubt it. They know that then "market price" is about $30K, and adjusted accordingly when GM reached the phase out stage (original MSRP was $37,500). Anyone think they will be able to buy a Bolt EV for $19K?
The original intent of the Tax Credit (and 200K cap per manufacturer) was to help mitigate the costs of developing and starting production of EVs. Tesla has demonstrated their is no need for them to qualify for Tax Credits - they are profitable and can sell more than they are capable of producing. Other manufacturers will get there (or not) without changing the incentive program.

I would much rather this new Tax Credit program be scrapped and revert to the flawed (but still better) existing program. Adding more bandaids and special interest concessions to the current proposed mess will result in an even more complicated Bill with higher overhead costs.

 

[Dbeglor]

The bill as it is proposed today will put at least $2B into Tecla's bank account in 2022 alone.

Tesla will raise the price (by an amount slightly less than the $8K incentive) on both the Model 3 and Model Y. They have demonstrated this in the past, and have always employed dynamic pricing. The end result will be a slightly lower price to the consumer (after the credit). Maybe $3K out of the $8K. Giving Tesla $5K net for every 3 and Y they can crank out (400K? 500K?) is not going to result in more EVs on the road and not how I want my tax dollars spent.
Will Chevy keep the Bolt MSRP @ $31K once a $12K incentive becomes available? I doubt it. They know that then "market price" is about $30K, and adjusted accordingly when GM reached the phase out stage (original MSRP was $37,500). Anyone think they will be able to buy a Bolt EV for $19K?
The original intent of the Tax Credit (and 200K cap per manufacturer) was to help mitigate the costs of developing and starting production of EVs. Tesla has demonstrated their is no need for them to qualify for Tax Credits - they are profitable and can sell more than they are capable of producing. Other manufacturers will get there (or not) without changing the incentive program.

I would much rather this new Tax Credit program be scrapped and revert to the flawed (but still better) existing program. Adding more bandaids and special interest concessions to the current proposed mess will result in an even more complicated Bill with higher overhead costs.

Exactly, as I was saying before these incentives go to the automakers effectively, not us. Now, I think targeted correctly (like originally with Tesla, not them now) they incentivize investment and development of EV technology and the transition. I sense that is probably the hang up now, how do you have the incentives without either lining Tesla's pockets or picking and choosing winners. It's a tricky game to play. I really don't think they should have changed the eligibility of the first 200k vehicles because that was the point, to get things off the ground. Changing eligibility is moving the goalposts that people have been operating under for years. It's become so entangled in unrelated politics that it's going to reduce the impact it has been having.

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