EV tax credit increase to $12,500 in Biden's latest proposal as of 10/28

[SeaGeo]

Can we say whole-heartedly that a BEV will have less of an environmental impact than today’s ICE over a 10 year span? I know a lot of us, including myself, have the belief that going electric is saving the environment but does it really? Sourcing materials to make batteries and producing electricity itself is damaging to the climate. So what gives? Where are we saving the environment? I’m purely asking for insight on what makes a BEV that much better ? Someone with knowledge on the subject please.

Yes.

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[dfx]

I’d agree if they didn’t do the incentives subsidies for the fossil fuel industries for the last century

With you 100% on how the Govt sucked up to that industry. Now Big Oil is buying and building biofuel plants to reap the subsidies there and the world will get more deforestation as a result.

 

[Friscorays]

Bummer about March 1, 2022.

 

[jjswan33]

Can we say whole-heartedly that a BEV will have less of an environmental impact than today’s ICE over a 10 year span? I know a lot of us, including myself, have the belief that going electric is saving the environment but does it really? Sourcing materials to make batteries and producing electricity itself is damaging to the climate. So what gives? Where are we saving the environment? I’m purely asking for insight on what makes a BEV that much better ? Someone with knowledge on the subject please.

IMO it isn't the case that it will surely be an environmental win but in general I think the carbon cost to produce a BEV or a ICE are similar for a similarly sized vehicle but over time the ICE will produce continued carbon emissions. Now if you are solely charging your car with electricity produced by coal or some other dirty source then it will just be the difference in the efficiency of the vehicle (compare the MPGe of a R1T to a ICE truck).

Now in my case I am choosing between a BEV truck vs a ICE truck. I can charge the BEV with electricity produced by my solar panels and any additional electricity I buy from the power company is coming from renewable sources (it costs more but I don't care). That is a win win...

 

[dfx]

As you might imagine one could write a multi-volume book on the topic but this could serve as a starting point.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html

Yes, it's a pretty involved issue but it's safe to say that EV's are trading one environmental impact for another and net/net probably come out ahead.

 

[DucRider]

Hmm, first article I've seen that mentions it being point-of-sale instead of a tax credit.

Not gonna happen.
The language in the bill puts off any POS for one year, but the logistics of transferring a complicated tax credit (it still is structured that way) to a business make it doomed.
There is nothing on the table to give incentive for the dealer (or manufacturer) to participate. In case something goes sideways, guess who's left holding the bag.

Oregon has been trying for 3 years to get the low/moderate income dependent incentive available as POS. The only way feasible is thru a pre-approval/voucher program. In order to make the Tax Credit transferable, something similar is required.
You would have to apply to the IRS ahead of time and have them review your most recent tax statements and all other relevant income documentation. The provision would have to be modified for the credit to be based on the previous years income, not the year of purchase. They would then issue a code or some other verification that you were income eligible. Then the dealer or manufacturer would have to determine if the vehicle you were purchasing was eligible (perhaps even at the "agreed upon price") with the options you selected. You would then sign over your credit to the dealer/manufacturer who then has to submit the request to the IRS (or designated agent) for reimbursement. This is likely to take weeks if everything goes absolutely smoothly. You can imagine the additional overhead and expenses incurred tracking this process for no additional financial benefit to the dealer/manufacturer.

Anyone want to take stab at the $$ required for the government to design, implement and administer such a program?

 

[Jehorton]

As you might imagine one could write a multi-volume book on the topic but this could serve as a starting point.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html

Pay site to read. Plus, no offense, I would like to see a site that is not biased.

 

[Zoidz]

Can we say whole-heartedly that a BEV will have less of an environmental impact than today’s ICE over a 10 year span? I know a lot of us, including myself, have the belief that going electric is saving the environment but does it really? Sourcing materials to make batteries and producing electricity itself is damaging to the climate. So what gives? Where are we saving the environment? I’m purely asking for insight on what makes a BEV that much better ? Someone with knowledge on the subject please.

10 years? No we can't. But history has shown that when a society needs to make a big transition, we have to crawl, then toddle, then walk, then run to get to where we want/need to be regarding EVs, climate change, etc. We are probably at the toddling point right now. During the transition, the environmental impact is likely neutral and just shifting the impact in different ways. But as we evolve and improve, it will lessen the impact, just as we evolved from NOx belching factories and vehicles to where we are today. We need EV adoption today by risk takers and early adopters to get to where we need to be by 2050.

[Soap box opinion mode]

The clean, constant, unlimited electricity solution is simple, but very unpopular due to FUD. Small regional nuclear power plants using today's technology are the answer. Existing nuclear power plants are like horse & buggy. State of the Art nuclear designs are EVs. New nuclear designs exist that make it physically impossible to have a catastrophic meltdown like TMI, Chernobyl, Fukishima, etc.

[/Soap box opinion mode]

 

[xyskis]

Not gonna happen.
The language in the bill puts off any POS for one year, but the logistics of transferring a complicated tax credit (it still is structured that way) to a business make it doomed.
There is nothing on the table to give incentive for the dealer (or manufacturer) to participate. In case something goes sideways, guess who's left holding the bag.

Oregon has been trying for 3 years to get the low/moderate income dependent incentive available as POS. The only way feasible is thru a pre-approval/voucher program. In order to make the Tax Credit transferable, something similar is required.
You would have to apply to the IRS ahead of time and have them review your most recent tax statements and all other relevant income documentation. The provision would have to be modified for the credit to be based on the previous years income, not the year of purchase. They would then issue a code or some other verification that you were income eligible. Then the dealer or manufacturer would have to determine if the vehicle you were purchasing was eligible (perhaps even at the "agreed upon price") with the options you selected. You would then sign over your credit to the dealer/manufacturer who then has to submit the request to the IRS (or designated agent) for reimbursement. This is likely to take weeks if everything goes absolutely smoothly. You can imagine the additional overhead and expenses incurred tracking this process for no additional financial benefit to the dealer/manufacturer.

Anyone want to take stab at the $$ required for the government to design, implement and administer such a program?

I agree with the sentiments and facts presented in this post. Look no further than Tesla energy not participating in state and utility incentive programs (as of August 2021); too cumbersome for them to even apply despite it being thousands to tens of thousands of dollars worth of incentives.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Can we say whole-heartedly that a BEV will have less of an environmental impact than today’s ICE over a 10 year span? I know a lot of us, including myself, have the belief that going electric is saving the environment but does it really? Sourcing materials to make batteries and producing electricity itself is damaging to the climate. So what gives? Where are we saving the environment? I’m purely asking for insight on what makes a BEV that much better ? Someone with knowledge on the subject please.

One of the biggest environmental motivators, imo, is that EVs can actually get cleaner, the longer you own them. Even if your power comes from coal, today -- a dirty way to generate power -- you can choose to install solar, tomorrow, or your energy provider may bring a new "green" plant online at some point, or whatever. Contrast that with an ICE vehicle and they're dirty the very first day and they only get more dirty as you drive them and parts wear out, efficiency goes down, fluids leak and get burned, etc.

The "mining for batteries is dirty" argument is a red herring, imo. Drilling for oil is a dirty business, and you're supporting a heck of a lot of that over the lifetime of a ICE vehicle! Also, we can accept that EVs aren't perfect but that's better than the status quo. Why do people think we shouldn't do EVs unless they are perfect? They're a heck of a lot better than what we've been doing, and that makes them a move in the right direction!

 

[Friscorays]

Bummer about March 1, 2022.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

[Soap box opinion mode]

The clean, constant, unlimited electricity solution is simple, but very unpopular due to FUD. Small regional nuclear power plants using today's technology are the answer. Existing nuclear power plants are like horse & buggy. State of the Art nuclear designs are EVs. New nuclear designs exist that make it physically impossible to have a catastrophic meltdown like TMI, Chernobyl, Fukishima, etc.

[/Soap box opinion mode]

I try not to wade into politics on the internet for....reasons.....but this is 100% spot on. Any renewable energy plan that doesn't embrace significant expansion of nuclear power is an unserious plan. 70 years ago some of the greatest physicists of their time figured out how to harness the most abundant resource in the universe to create virtually unlimited power with minimal environmental impact and it is basically ignored. Honestly, it makes me hate the Russians that much more because you have to wonder how much more prevalent nuclear energy would be if it hadn't been for their abject failure at Chernobyl.

 

[Speedrye]

I thought this article was pretty good last year:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakd...s-of-clean-electric-vehicles/?sh=2aa5ca3650bd

The biggest issue is the mining. Currently, mining isn't that bad, but when we need 100x (or more) that much raw material, and then refining that material, I don't think we'll be better off than using oil. We don't have, and won't have enough solar/wind power to even come close to making all the electric (cars, leaf blowers, etc) stuff work, so nuke plants are the only viable option for most areas. I have no illusions that my driving of an electric vehicle is somehow saving the environment since it'll be powered by pretty much 100% coal.

 

[jjswan33]

I try not to wade into politics on the internet for....reasons.....but this is 100% spot on. Any renewable energy plan that doesn't embrace significant expansion of nuclear power is an unserious plan. 70 years ago some of the greatest physicists of their time figured out how to harness the most abundant resource in the universe to create virtually unlimited power with minimal environmental impact and it is basically ignored. Honestly, it makes me hate the Russians that much more because you have to wonder how much more prevalent nuclear energy would be if it hadn't been for their abject failure at Chernobyl.

100% agree as a physicist, nuclear power is one of the cleanest energy sources we have, minus the radioactive waste but with research this could be recycled many times. Even better lets throw more money at Nuclear Fusion, this is the holy grail because gives us unlimited power and a byproduct of water.

 

[Friscorays]

Bummer about March 1, 2022.

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