EV charging in the US is broken: Verge article

[Gator42]

President Biden...recently introduced a $2 trillion infrastructure plan, $174 billion of which is earmarked for electric cars. As part of that plan, Biden wants to build 500,000 new EV chargers by 2030

...at the risk of exposing my age and economic education, if President Biden wants to spend that kind money we'll end up with something far less than what the marketplace has currently developed. Government types like the current trendy talk of intervention and government spending as a 'solution' to marketplace inefficiency but to me it is not encouraging news to hear...

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[Gator42]

The way the EU did this is mandating that all new cars accept CCS; Tesla then starting adding CCS ports to their cars and dual-output cables to superchargers (as well as selling adapters). With sufficient advance notice, this seems reasonable for the US as well.

I don't believe the EU actually mandated opening the supercharger network to other manufacturers, but connector interop is the key unlock for customers; Tesla owners shouldn't be locked in.

...yes, standard, 'universal, charging ports are the type of government intervention that's constructive. It took some time to sort out which but CCS seems like an acceptable standard for a mandate.

ICE vehicle standards for fuel pump openings didn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle. The charging network infrastructure rollout could benefit...

 

[timf]

Can you be more specific? I am posting this 18 minutes after your post and all the SC on the UP are reporting fully functional.

As of now Marquette is the only one. It just opened last week but should be fully functional. Escanaba is very close to opening, and Sault Ste. Marie should be right behind it.

 

[SeaGeo]

When I go into the posted comments on PlugShare I see things like "An EA charger that started on the first try. That's a rare thing...." (Seattle area) and the common "Only terminal __ was functioning", "Card reader didn't work, had to call" , "350 kW chargers not functional - 150 kW OK" and the ubiquitous "CHAdeMO doesn't work". No one has ever mentioned vandalism that I have seen.

I have been to one SC where one of the cabinets was down taking down 2 terminals with it and I have been to one where the terminals were arranged for pull-through and one of them had been hit by a vehicle and knocked over.

In any case I am concerned about my coming transition to the CCS network. I was encouraged by a conversation I had with a gentleman charging his Bolt who confirmed that while the CCS net may be squirrely it is usually possible to get a charge out of it. He had never been left high and dry.

I can't speak to Chademo. Last I knew the card reader was an old issue, but I also don't use them ever. Just the app.

I actually haven't had issues with getting my ID.4 to start charging at EA unless one of the chargers is down and identified for repair, which has actually been rare so far (Seattle area). Definitely hasn't caused any problems and the station noted it ahead of time with an out of order notice on the screen. The issue I have had was at a target in the area multiple screens were broken. They were broken prior to the heat wave, and therefore I'm assuming it was vandalism.

A lot of the connection problems come down to the car manufacturer and EA working together. Most people I've seen either ID.4s or Mach E seem to have a reasonably good experience with EA overall.

 

[ajdelange]

As of today there are zero Superchergers functioning in the UP of Michigan. There is one functioning ccs dcfc in the same region. Get off your horse.

Can you be more specific? I am posting this 18 minutes after your post and all the SC on the UP are reporting fully functional.

As of now Marquette is the only one. It just opened last week but should be fully functional. Escanaba is very close to opening, and Sault Ste. Marie should be right behind it.

I'm afraid I am more confused than ever. All the Supercharger on the UP seem to be fully functional. There is no SC in Marquette or Escanaba. But there are DCFC being installed there. Perhaps you are new to the world of BEV. "Supercharger", while perhaps not trademarked, is associated with Tesla. An EA, for example, DCFC is not referred to as a SUpercharger but rather as a "D.C. Fast Charger. Is this the source of our disconnect?

 

[Billyk24]

I'm afraid I am more confused than ever. All the Supercharger on the UP seem to be fully functional. There is no SC in Marquette or Escanaba. But there are DCFC being installed there. Perhaps you are new to the world of BEV. "Supercharger", while perhaps not trademarked, is associated with Tesla. An EA, for example, DCFC is not referred to as a SUpercharger but rather as a "D.C. Fast Charger. Is this the source of our disconnect?

PHoto of the SuperCharger in Esky July 5, 2021. I was wrong as the Marquette Supercharger did open end of June 2021. The CCS DCFC opened in Norway, Michigan November 2020. There are about seven other UP CCS DCFC locations in the UP of Michigan planned via RedEcharge network and Hage Automotive.

 

[DucRider]

I don;t think there is much valid argument against the superiority of the Tesla Supercharging network. For a long time it was the only game in town, and in some areas of the country it still is.
The CCS network is getting better very quickly and building out much faster than Tesla was able to achieve at the outset. It took them much longer to reach the current density/coverage of the CCS (primarily EA) network.
It is so much better that it is the primary market advantage that Tesla holds. For many years we told people at shows and events that if you are looking to do long distance travel, the only practical option is Tesla. Yes, people did it in J1772 vehicles, and some with CHAdeMO, but they operative word is practical.
That scenario is changing quickly and in some areas the CCS network is nearly equal (in theory at least) and certainly makes travel in a CCS equipped vehicle practical. Longer range and faster charging times are also a key part of this equation.

I was excited about Rivian from the outset, but the surprise of the RAN (and waypoints) was a huge boost in the practicality of the vehicle for my wants/needs. The locations they have highlighted make trips possible to places that are a miss with Superchargers (North Cascades hwy is one example). Yes, there will still be some holes, but Rivian seems open to input and we will likely see many of those filled.

As to the US government dictating a standard - for me it would be a "No". It is entirely reasonable for them to include a caveat that if public money (or property) is used, then the charging equipment must be available for all to use (and this would entail a standard such as J1772/CCS), but if someone wants to build their own private network - more power to them.

The market will likely eventually come to a common standard, and that is very likely to be CCS. Tesla will at some point offer an adapter so their vehicles can utilize high powered CCS, but I doubt they will go the route in the US that they were required to in the EU and equip their vehicles with CCS ports (and their Superchargers with CCS plugs). Nor are we likely to see the dual port approach on their vehicles sold in China.

It is also possible that we will see DCFC vendors offer Tesla plugs on their equipment. We have already seen it on L2 EVSEs. This would require a degree of cooperation from Tesla that may or may not be forthcoming.

The Supercharger network was a major key to Tesla's success - and to the growth/adoption of all EVs as well. Duplicating the ability to roam in a non-Tesla EV is an absolute requirement for other manufacturers to approach to success/volume of Tesla.

 

[ajdelange]

I was wrong as the Marquette Supercharger did open end of June 2021.

You are wrong because you are calling stations which are not Tesla Superchargers "Superchargers". If you continue to do that you will confuse readers and yourself. Here's the PlugShare map of the area showing all the SuperChargers in the region. Do you see one at Marquette?

Rivians will not be able to use Superchargers (there's the pity).

Now there is some sort of CCS station planned for Marquette but it is not listed as open yet - at least not by PlugShare. Perhaps you are not familiar with PlugShare. Download a copy or search for it on the web. It is very informative. Every BEV owner should have it on his smartphone.

[Edit]Plugshare is crowd sourced. If you know for a fact that the DCFC (no SC) at Marquette is online you should report that to PlugShare. They will then post it but not until they have verified it.

 

[ajdelange]

Tesla will at some point offer an adapter so their vehicles can utilize high powered CCS, but I doubt they will go the route in the US that they were required to in the EU and equip their vehicles with CCS ports (and their Superchargers with CCS plugs).

Many things to agree with in this post. On this point, however, I am not so sure. Adapters are OK for limited power but you will note that the existing CCS to Tesla adapter and the CHAdeMO to Tesla adapters are rather severely limited in the currents they are approved for. I think Tesla will come round to the CCS standard (they are essentially already there except for the connector) and put CCS connectors in their vehicles. And I think they will go to the two hose terminals here as they have done in Europe for backward compatibility with older cars that use the Tesla proprietary connector. I don't know when this will come to pass or, indeed, even if it will.

 

[Billyk24]

You are wrong because you are calling stations which are not Tesla Superchargers. If you continue to do that you will confuse readers and yourself. Here's the PlugShare map of the area showing all the SuperChargers in the region. Do you see one at Marquette?

Rivians will not be able to use Superchargers (there's the pity).

Now there is some sort of CCS station planned for Marquette but it is not listed as open yet - at least not by PlugShare. Perhaps you are not familiar with PlugShare. Download a copy or search for it on the web. It is very informative. Every BEV owner should have it on his smartphone.

I will back my statement again--get off your horse. I have inputted into Plugshare many times including photos of the CCS DCFC in Norway and others. I have a home 17 miles from the UP border and I can charge up both Tesla and non-Tesla EV's with my 50amp L2 outlet.

 

[ajdelange]

I will back my statement again--get off your horse. I have inputted into Plugshare many times including photos of the CCS DCFC in Norway and others.

So you are standing by your statement that there is a SuperCharger in Marquette when Plugshare shows that there is none?

I have a home 17 miles from the UP border and I can charge up both Tesla and non-Tesla EV's with my 50amp L2 outlet.

And back that up with an irrelevant comment about L2 at home in a discussion of L3 charging at a station?

I fear your horse must have kicked you in the head. I'm staying on mine.

 

[timf]

So you are standing by your statement that there is a SuperCharger in Marquette when Plugshare shows that there is none?

Yes, it just opened last week. Supercharge.info has been updated, but PlugShare has not. I was specifically referring to Tesla Superchargers, not CCS or any other kind of DCFC.

 

[ajdelange]

So what kind of charger opened in Marquette? Is it a Supercharger? Tesla doesn't think it is.

 

[electrictaco]

So what kind of charger opened in Marquette? Is it a Supercharger? Tesla doesn't think it is.

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bo...supercharger&location=MarquetteMIsupercharger

Looks like this one.

 

[timf]

So what kind of charger opened in Marquette? Is it a Supercharger? Tesla doesn't think it is.

Yes, it is a 250KW V3 Supercharger.

Full coverage including photos: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-marquette-mi.178384

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