EV charging in the US is broken: Verge article

[IHScout]

Because ideally the government would represent the interests of the people that it represents.

Think about the government in the early 1900s. It’s easy to say “well, times were different then,” but I would argue that it’s specifically because of the government that times were different then. The FDA, FCC, NIH, and lots of other federal agencies were created to further causes that enabled said times to be different.

A rather interesting (and applicable) example: the REA, Rural Electrification Administration was created to get electricity to rural America in 1936 (!!) and drove the adoption of a higher 7.2kV standard to make it feasible to extend transmission lines to farming communities. It secured loans and offered grants to companies to help them establish a viable power grid in extremely rural America. It established minimums that they had to install and safety guidelines that needed to be followed.

I don't believe that those are fair comparisons. In your example, the government stepped in where there was no market and establish the standards. In this case, different companies are entering the markets with differing ideas. I think a better comparison would be Beta and VHS. I just believe that the market can work itself out, even though it may have growing pains, like now. I just don't think a government mandate is appropriate. That is just my opinion. I am not looking to be combative or get into a back and forth with anyone on here.

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[Cactus]

Some time ago I calculated what it would cost to drive from Phoenix to Dallas using EA charging. It was over twice the cost of gasoline in a 4-series BMW at $3.00 per gallon. Gov't is going to need to subsidize to facilitate change.
I know what some of you are thinking: EA charging is so terrible that not only would it cost twice as much, it would take twice as long and be infinitely frustrating to negotiate EA charging.
I don't blame Rivian one bit for building a proprietary charging network. Too bad they didn't make a deal with Tesla.

 

[Interferon]

I am in favor of a universal standard, similar to gas pump nozzle sizes and electrical plugs. I think this will help accelerate EV adoption.

I am not in favor of the government mandating that companies who invested capital to build out a changing network be forced to open the network to everyone. That's just my opinion.

People with none of their own capital on the line are good at telling the people that do how to run their business.

 

[Billyk24]

Would make complete sense they serve 1.6 mil people a day. Though wouldn’t surprise me if politics plays a part, Haslem is a big Republican fundraiser type and it’s oil and petroleum.

Oil and petro spoken as if you only read state run propaganda news.

 

[ajdelange]

Some time ago I calculated what it would cost to drive from Phoenix to Dallas using EA charging. It was over twice the cost of gasoline in a 4-series BMW at $3.00 per gallon. Gov't is going to need to subsidize to facilitate change.

"As government does nothing well the least government is the best government." IOW the government meddling here is the last thing we want. We know how to operate a successful charging infrastructure, Tesla has shown the way. Elon understood years ago that it would be impossible to provide charging to Tesla owners at a profit and so he resolved not to try. Tesla subsidizes the SC network and if the other OEMs want Teslas success overall they will have to do rhe same, Some do. I think VW gives three years free charging. I really expected Rivian to do that rather than trying to replicate Teslas network. Do we know anything about what Rivian will be charging for a DC RAN charge?

Obviously Tesla (and everyone else) simply time shifts the charge. You still pay for it but it is in the price of the car. The good news is that it really, on average, is not that big an expense. Something like 85% of charging is done at home at, on average, 13¢ a kWh (or less if you have some solar or a windmill). This isn't much unless you live in one of the states that charge double or more than the average rate. Most people only make a few long trips a year and so aren't often subject to the outrageous prices charged by CCS operators. Road Warriors and people who can't charge at home are, of course, the exception. They might want to think about Tesla rather than a vehicle that charges from CCS or about not going to BEV at all. I really think this has to give Tesla a tremendous marketing advantage.

When my neighbors ask 'How much did it cost to drive up here?" I just love being able to say "Nothing". I won't be able to say that with the Rivian, of course but so it goes. The first half of my biannual migration is covered by the charge at home which is free in Virginia and 11¢ per kWh in Quebec so things aren't that bad.

 

[TessP100D]

Some time ago I calculated what it would cost to drive from Phoenix to Dallas using EA charging. It was over twice the cost of gasoline in a 4-series BMW at $3.00 per gallon. Gov't is going to need to subsidize to facilitate change.
I know what some of you are thinking: EA charging is so terrible that not only would it cost twice as much, it would take twice as long and be infinitely frustrating to negotiate EA charging.
I don't blame Rivian one bit for building a proprietary charging network. Too bad they didn't make a deal with Tesla.

I agree. The Tesla network simply works.

 

[TessP100D]

"As government does nothing well the least government is the best government." IOW the government meddling here is the last thing we want. We know how to operate a successful charging infrastructure, Tesla has shown the way. Elon understood years ago that it would be impossible to provide charging to Tesla owners at a profit and so he resolved not to try. Tesla subsidizes the SC network and if the other OEMs want Teslas success overall they will have to do rhe same, Some do. I think VW gives three years free charging. I really expected Rivian to do that rather than trying to replicate Teslas network. Do we know anything about what Rivian will be charging for a DC RAN charge?

Obviously Tesla (and everyone else) simply time shifts the charge. You still pay for it but it is in the price of the car. The good news is that it really, on average, is not that big an expense. Something like 85% of charging is done at home at, on average, 13¢ a kWh (or less if you have some solar or a windmill). This isn't much unless you live in one of the states that charge double or more than the average rate. Most people only make a few long trips a year and so aren't often subject to the outrageous prices charged by CCS operators. Road Warriors and people who can't chargee at jpe are, of course, the exception. They might want to think about Tesla rather than a vehicle that charges from CCS or about not going to BEV at all. I really think this has to give Tesla a tremendous marketing advantage.

When my neighbors ask 'How much did it cost to drive up here?" I just love being able to say "Nothing". I won't be able to say that with the Rivian, of course but so it goes. The first half of my biannual migration is covered by the charge at home which is free in Virginia and 11¢ per kWh in Quebec so things aren't that bad.

Yes Tesla owners have a big advantage. I to have free lifetime charging. I never worry about any charging issues.

 

[kanundrum]

I was very surprised to see the lack of DCFC 70kw+ plugs (CCS) along the eastern shore. Heading to the beach there in a week and will have to slum it with 50kw charging which in practice has historically been not that fast maybe 40kw. My Ioniq charging curve is pretty great and hits about 64kw until 80%.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, the Delmarva is a little thin. Not that many (7) SC over there either.

 

[Billyk24]

Isn't the RAN DCFC exclusive to Rivian?

It has been labeled such but.....the return on investment will require frequent usage and thus open to other brands. Open to others but with a surcharge cost per use could be a policy.

 

[ajdelange]

Are they seeking ROI? Tesla isn't.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

It has been labeled such but.....the return on investment will require frequent usage and thus open to other brands. Open to others but with a surcharge cost per use could be a policy.

The problem is availability. It’s going to be a problem if Rivian promises exclusivity for Rivian owners and then you show up to a trail and find all the stations are occupied by other brands.

 

[SeaGeo]

Are they seeking ROI? Tesla isn't.

Selling the cars is ROI for now. The QoS and availability is a big part of the value proposition that then gets people into their cars, and keeps them happy with their cars. Selling the electricity is apparently a losing proposition right now anyway.

 

[ajdelange]

The walled garden will start biting Tesla in the ass as soon as V2 and V3 Superchargers don't seem that great compared to the competition. The V2 Superchargers with 150kW are middle of the road now, in two years it could be the bare minimum. The V3 Superchargers with 250kW can't keep pace if 800V vehicles begin to dominate. Tesla will have a hard time putting up the same numbers as Hyundai/Kia (18 mins 5-80% on a 350kW charger) if their charging infrastructure doesn't see a major overhaul.

Generally I agree. The v2 Superchargers and "knowing which stall to pick to not share power" is not something the mainstream will tolerate. The backstory for folks not familiar is, that with the v2 generation of SCs a pair of chargers share a 150kW feed, and if you had 2 cars parked next to each other they'd share that 150kW, so depending on even more minutiae you could get 45-75kW not the 150kW you'd generally expect. Long story short, fine for early adopters, but too complicated and not acceptable to the mainstream.

If you have to take a paired stall odds are that the guy who got there before you has been there long enough to be in taper so that your share of the 150K is likely to be a pretty good chunk of it. Most charges, even at V2 stations seems to be about 20 minutes so on average the guy in the other stall will be gone in 10 min. I'll bet that if you polled people at a V2 station most wouldn't even be aware of the tip "don't take a paired stall". When I've had to take a paired stall it is often the case that some one in a stall other than your partner's will leave before he does making an unpaired stall available. Should you move? Every time I've looked at that deciision I"ve decided it's not worth the trouble given the time it would save me. So sure, it's true V3's will get you out of the charging station faster than V2s but the V2 pairing issue just doesn't seem to be such such a big deal to me.

V3's don't, ostensibly, share. I say ostensibly because I'll bet if the load for the whole station starts to get to be too big for its transformer or the station starts to get into "demand" charges, that all the chargers in that station will be commanded to curtail somewhat.

The numbers for KIA imply a charging rate of 2.5C averaged over the whole charge. That's pretty steep. In general average rate for Li is more like 1C, the rate at which Tesla charges. This implies that Kia is willing to put their batteries at more risk than Tesla does or that they have some super-battery which can withstand those high rates. Charger capacity of 250 kW (V3) is sufficient to support overall charge rates of 1C in cars with batteries up to about 200 kWh so V3 is adequate for the TriMotor CT and every thing else Tesla makes. 1C implies .6 minutes of charging for every % of charge you take on as long as you stay out of the > 85% SoC region. Obviously 2.5C represents .24 min/%, etc.

You don't have to have an 800V architecture to benefit from a 900V charger. You just have to be able to reconfigure your battery into an 800V string for charging and back to a 400V parallel configuration for running, Rivian filed a patent for this and was supposed to have implemented it for early if not the first trucks out the door.

This will eventually be a pain for Tesla. I'm unsure "when" though.

There is no need for more power than the V3's provide until such time as Tesla comes up with a battery it feels safe charging at > 1C and/or they start manufacturing vehicles with bigger battery packs. As range has sort of faded as the marketing department's battle cry charging speed seems to have replaced it. And, naturally, we'd all like to be able to charge our cars in say 10 minutes. Assuming the average charge to be 60% that's 3.6 C. In a vehicle with a 200 kW battery that means 720 kW average. Since some taper is doubtless going to be required in the requisite new battery that withstands 3.6C a power supply that peaks at 1 MW will be wanted. Musk has said that faster charging is on the planning sheet but I think it's pretty obvious that it will be a while before we have 10 minute charging. I've even started to wonder about the Kia number.

The v3 SCs at 250kW are quite solid though, very unlikely to have to "share" with the setup there. I'll spare the details, but suffice it to say lots more minutiae but 95%+ of the time you'll never need to think about it.

As V3's don't "pair" the only kind of sharing they will do is stationwide (which is also how the V3 HPWC share) and there is nothing anyone can do about that so why worry? Even with V2's it's hardly something to worry about (IMO).

I think the overall issue that Tesla will have with their SCs is that they're 400v. Tesla due to their sizable buildout of SCs and the investment made there means they're effectively locked into the 400v battery architecture. The CCS chargers (EVGo, Electrify America, etc, etc) can do 400-1000v meaning they're a lot more flexible and future-proof as battery architectures change. This will likely become a hinderance to Telsa at some point, and I imagine at _that_ point they'll be much more likely to open up SCs to other manufacturers.

Tesla is a member of CharIN and as such and given the way these fast DC chargers are are designed I think you will find the transition to 920V (Charin HPC350 upper voltage limit; lower end is 200V) pretty simple (put two 400 V chargers in series). The issues, I believe, are much more electro-political than electrical.

 

[DuckTruck]

I don't believe that those are fair comparisons. In your example, the government stepped in where there was no market and establish the standards. In this case, different companies are entering the markets with differing ideas. I think a better comparison would be Beta and VHS. I just believe that the market can work itself out, even though it may have growing pains, like now. I just don't think a government mandate is appropriate. That is just my opinion. I am not looking to be combative or get into a back and forth with anyone on here.

I've used the Beta/VHS comparison often when explaining some of the complications of EV usage to my gassy friends. Sony's Super Beta Hi-Fi was always superior to their own VHS format, but when they unleashed VHS to every other company, it made Super Beta Hi-Fi a real oddity. I seem to remember Blockbuster carrying Super Beta Hi-Fi recorded movies for what seemed like a hot minute before they were gone. The movie industry decided supporting the most popular format (even if not the best) just made sense. OK, enough about the movie sidetrack.

While there may be new charging options coming out in the future, I think it's safe to say the vast majority of upcoming EVs will choose to go with CCS. Nissan's move away from chademo(sp?) seems like a clear signal that it will be toast. Until dictated by technological reasons, why would any OEM stray from CCS? The EU's mandate to unify car (and held held device) charging makes sense. I say that even though I'm a bigger fan of letting markets drive change, rather than putting politicians at the control. It may be true that something other than CCS will be needed for higher energy levels, but until that need forces a change in systems, I don't see anything but an increasing percentage of all non-Teslas utilizing CCS. Who knows what Tesla will do in the future, but I doubt if anyone here would bet on another OEM ever adopting Tesla's system.

I think we'd be better off if all EV OEMs sat down and got their collective poop in a group and unified their charging systems, but time (and markets, and politicos) will tell....

Just my two cents worth.

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