azbill

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Only $100. I'll likely be reserving one as well. Can't hurt to have options.
Absolutely correct, $100 deposit. There are also three benefits to the Hummer, based on information GM has released so far:

200KW Battery
800 Volt System
350 KW charging

This puts the Hummer at the top of the charging capability for many years to come, since the existing CCS standard has the limit of 350KW. It will take many years to advance things beyond that, except that Tesla my do something special for their vehicles. So far though, it appears the CT is still a 400V system and they are pushing 625 amps to get 250KW charging.

One question Rivian has not really answered is; will the 300KW charging be standard or optional? Will it be included in the very first deliveries? I expect the configurator to tell me this.
 

azbill

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We'll see how the price compares - Hummer price speculations are "starting at $70K", and that could be the single motor version. Plus GM vehicles no longer qualify for the $7,500 Fed Tax Credit.

They have said it will have 800V architecture and 350 kW charging, so charging speed will be comparable to the Rivian and Lucid.

My guess is lower range and power coupled with a higher net price. We'll know more in a few days.
Not likely to have lower range. The 200KW battery will have ~400 miles, same as Rivian 180KW pack. If they offer a lower base model it would come in at 150KW and provide 300 mile range. We also know the top end power is supposed to be 1000HP, that probably assumes three motors.

Since there is no configurator, we really do not have the top end price for the Rivian yet, but hopefully on Tuesday we will see what it is for the Hummer.
 

Rivianmd

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Hi - new to the forum. I preordered 4/2019. When reading a lot of these threads I get the sense that folks think their preorder timing will dictate their spot inline without considering the cost of configuration. My assumption is that they will build the most expensive configurations first - meaning that preorder date will be dependent on the cost of your configuration layered with preorder timing. Is this an accurate assumption? The hypothetical is that they roll with a fully loaded 180kw version @ ~
95k and that a person willing to purchase that vehicle could preorder tomorrow and get their vehicle ahead of me. I am looking to order RS1 135kw @ 80k price point max (with third row). Thoughts on this?
 

davrow_R1T

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My assumption is that they will build the most expensive configurations first - meaning that preorder date will be dependent on the cost of your configuration layered with preorder timing.
I think you are right they will start with more expensive versions first. Place in line may or may not matter at all.

But supply chain constraints may affect availability, too. What if they cannot get their electrochromic glass until September? Anyone ordering that will have to wait longer. (just a hypothetical example)

And I expect them to do batches... so a certain interior may be the only one available for the first month (again, just an example).
 

DucRider

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Absolutely correct, $100 deposit. There are also three benefits to the Hummer, based on information GM has released so far:

200KW Battery
800 Volt System
350 KW charging

This puts the Hummer at the top of the charging capability for many years to come, since the existing CCS standard has the limit of 350KW. It will take many years to advance things beyond that, except that Tesla my do something special for their vehicles. So far though, it appears the CT is still a 400V system and they are pushing 625 amps to get 250KW charging.

One question Rivian has not really answered is; will the 300KW charging be standard or optional? Will it be included in the very first deliveries? I expect the configurator to tell me this.
The current CCS standard has a limit of 400 kW (400A @ 1000V).
The EA chargers are from a few different suppliers, but most are 375A. If the the Hummer is a true 800V nominal (the "800V" Taycan is actually 723 nominal), max rate on the chargers in service would be 300 kW.
Even with a 400A charger, the Hummer would top out at 320 kW if it was 800V. Sometimes a reveal will give specific info like pack sizes (actual and usable numbers are desirable, but that info was not released on the Bolt), cell configuration, nominal voltage, etc. But usually not. If the Hummer is actually in the neighborhood of 900V (like Lucid), the 350 kW number becomes achievable. But 350 kW @ 800V is not supported by the CCS standard.

While not stated specifically, RJ said that the charging capability would be at least 300 kW. Given his cautious nature, I very much doubt that it will be optional, extra cost, or only for later models.
 

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The current CCS standard has a limit of 400 kW (400A @ 1000V).
The EA chargers are from a few different suppliers, but most are 375A. If the the Hummer is a true 800V nominal (the "800V" Taycan is actually 723 nominal), max rate on the chargers in service would be 300 kW.
Even with a 400A charger, the Hummer would top out at 320 kW if it was 800V. Sometimes a reveal will give specific info like pack sizes (actual and usable numbers are desirable, but that info was not released on the Bolt), cell configuration, nominal voltage, etc. But usually not. If the Hummer is actually in the neighborhood of 900V (like Lucid), the 350 kW number becomes achievable. But 350 kW @ 800V is not supported by the CCS standard.

While not stated specifically, RJ said that the charging capability would be at least 300 kW. Given his cautious nature, I very much doubt that it will be optional, extra cost, or only for later models.
CCS standard is not the be-all-and-end-all of ev charging, a company can support 500 A if it wants to and create charging station that can support it (like https://www.phoenixcontact.com/asse...promotion/52007586_EN_HQ_E-Mobility_LoRes.pdf).
 

DucRider

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CCS standard is not the be-all-and-end-all of ev charging, a company can support 500 A if it wants to and create charging station that can support it (like https://www.phoenixcontact.com/asse...promotion/52007586_EN_HQ_E-Mobility_LoRes.pdf).
Yes, that is the connector (and cooling system) used on CCS units. Yes, it is rated to 500A. It is not a charging system.
Yes, someone could design a system that supports something like the Tesla 625A and double (or triple+) the voltage to get 500 kW+ charging. But unless it is a standard that vehicle manufacturers adopt, it is useless.
The Hummer will adhere to the CCS standard. GM is not going to design their own high powered charging system and then install a dedicated network that only they can use.
The Hummer will be able to use the extensive EA (and other) high powered stations and be limited to 400A, although many/most are 375A. They do use a connector rated for 500A as linked above, but primarily from Huber+Suhner (& some ITT Cannon) and not Phoenix Contact.
 
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  • Thread starter
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Hi - new to the forum. I preordered 4/2019. When reading a lot of these threads I get the sense that folks think their preorder timing will dictate their spot inline without considering the cost of configuration. My assumption is that they will build the most expensive configurations first - meaning that preorder date will be dependent on the cost of your configuration layered with preorder timing. Is this an accurate assumption? The hypothetical is that they roll with a fully loaded 180kw version @ ~
95k and that a person willing to purchase that vehicle could preorder tomorrow and get their vehicle ahead of me. I am looking to order RS1 135kw @ 80k price point max (with third row). Thoughts on this?
My guess is config will be first factor, Then preorder date for those ordering similar configs.
At least that’s how I would do it.

from a business perspective I wonder how much is supply chain and how much is a need to make money quickly.
 

Coast2Coast

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In the Hummer and Rivian comparison in this thread, the comparison so far is limited to charging systems, volt system, and battery sizes. By next week, we'll know a lot more about Hummer and, unfortunately, not much more about Rivian, but I'd think the vehicle-to-vehicle comparison would include a lot more than charging and volt systems and battery sizes.

My points for comparison? Interior and exterior design, power delivery (how many motors and how they are situated and managed), suspension, including air suspension and hydraulic kinetic systems, skateboard versus semi-skateboard architectures, battery supplier and battery characteristics in terms of energy density, warranty, service, and timing of deliveries relative to reservations. And, of course, pricing and other points of comparison.

Charging & volt systems and battery sizes are important, but there's a lot more to compare. Hopefully, we'll be able to do so soon.
 

azbill

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The current CCS standard has a limit of 400 kW (400A @ 1000V).
The EA chargers are from a few different suppliers, but most are 375A. If the the Hummer is a true 800V nominal (the "800V" Taycan is actually 723 nominal), max rate on the chargers in service would be 300 kW.
The EA chargers support 500A, I have read the nameplates on the ABB units. Those are rated to 900V, not 1000V. This applies to the 350KW units, I believe the 150KW units may be limited to 400A, but I will try to confirm that next time I am by one of their sites.

The CCS connector specification is for 1000V and 500A.
 

DucRider

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The EA chargers support 500A, I have read the nameplates on the ABB units. Those are rated to 900V, not 1000V. This applies to the 350KW units, I believe the 150KW units may be limited to 400A, but I will try to confirm that next time I am by one of their sites.

The CCS connector specification is for 1000V and 500A.
My bad. Posted without confirming what I thought I knew.
CharIn specifies minimum voltages/amperages, but does allow for greater values outside that range.

1603039082322.png


1603038961766.png


HPC350 actually requires 500A support at up to 700V.

HPC150 actually also requires 500A support (at up to 300V).

1603039646929.png


A 150 kW unit that had 400A Max could be certified as FC50 (>=50kW), but not HPC150
 

ajdelange

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200KW Battery
800 Volt System
350 KW charging

This puts the Hummer at the top of the charging capability for many years to come, since the existing CCS standard has the limit of 350KW. It will take many years to advance things beyond that
The absolute maximum of which CCS is capable seems to be a well kept secret but I believe it to be 500 A and 1000V that is, 500 kW. ITT will sell you a CCS charger capable of delivering that today.

except that Tesla my do something special for their vehicles.
They have and I don't consider it so special as it is pretty obvious what to do. Double (or treble or quadruple) the number of chargers you connect the vehicle to. This is the approach that they have taken with the Semi and, if you read my stuff at all here or elsewhere you will know that I think they are probably going to do the same in the CT (at least in the TriMotor version). I think they almost have to in order not to be behind Rivian, Hummer, Lucid...

Remember that a Tesla 250 kW charger is 25 modules capable of 10 kW each connected in parallel (or something like that - it is modular). A 500 kW charger has twice as many modules. And as we can't practically push 1300 A through a single hose a second one is used. This approach also fits with the current 385 V battery modules in the vehicles.

So far though, it appears the CT is still a 400V system and they are pushing 625 amps to get 250KW charging.
So add a second port and plug in two and you have 500 kW which is more than any car that I am aware of can take.

Try to keep in mind that the charging rate of a vehicle is only half the story. The other half is the vehicle's per mile consumption. Given two BEV one with 250 Wh/mi consumption and the other with 500 a 350 kW charger will replace the same number of miles in the former in half the time needed for the latter.

One question Rivian has not really answered is; will the 300KW charging be standard or optional? Will it be included in the very first deliveries? I expect the configurator to tell me this.
Wow, yes that is a big question. I'd guess it would be because making it a paid option would seem to be a pretty dirty trick.
 
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DucRider

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The absolute maximum of which CCS is capable seems to be a well kept secret but I believe it to be 500 A and 1000V that is, 500 kW. ITT will sell you a CCS charger capable of delivering that today.
It looks like CharIn has not set a maximum for either voltage or amperage, but set minumum values and the range of combinations of the two that must be supported and can therefore be tested for compliance/compatibility.
Manufacturers of both charging equipment and vehicles can design to use higher amperages and/or voltages, but interoperability could potentially be (more of) an issue.
 

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