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Economic Reasons to Buy an EV instead of a gas powered car

ajdelange

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This is not to be taken as a recommendation but I have on a couple of occasions hired contractors who need to use heavy (240V) machines at my premises. Electric welders and a floor sander come to mind. A guy comes to the front door with a long extension cord that fits the machine at one end and is unterminated at the other. In the other hand he has a bag of circuit breakers from various manufacturers. He says "Good morning. Where's your panel?" If that suggests something to you OK but I just want to be clear that I am not recommending this approach.
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DucRider

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...., with a simple adapter, plug into two 120V outlets thus getting 240 and doubling charging speed.
This does work with some caveats:
  • The outlets must be on separate circuits
  • Those circuits must be on opposing legs of the service panel (a breaker for a 240V circuit does this)
  • Your 240V EVSE must be able to limit draw to 12A (16A if both circuits are rated for 20A). If you plug a 32A EVSE into this setup, bad things could result - hopefully the breaker(s) would trip before it got too ugly.
 

ajdelange

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This does work with some caveats:
  • The outlets must be on separate circuits
  • Those circuits must be on opposing legs of the service panel (a breaker for a 240V circuit does this)
Interestingly enough in Canada (or Quebec, anyway) the receptacles in a duplex outlet installed in a kitchen must be on opposite phases. The electrician pulls 12/3 insted of 12/2 (I think they are required to be 20 A) and, of course, that is wired to a 2 pole breaker so all the requirements are met. That's not the usual case. One can obviously kluge something up yourself but the commercially offered units generally have a test lamp that lights only when the two plugs are correctly connected.

  • Your 240V EVSE must be able to limit draw to 12A (16A if both circuits are rated for 20A). If you plug a 32A EVSE into this setup, bad things could result - hopefully the breaker(s) would trip before it got too ugly.
That is true but your UMC hooked to a kluge like this isn't EVSE. The key word in the definition of EVSE (Art. 625) is "installed" and a mobile charger isn't installed. So the inspector isn't going to flunk you or refuse you an occupancy permit if you run such an arrangement at the full 20 A. Besides which, you aren't doing this at home you are doing it at your sister's house or parents house and so if you cause a fire it's they who have to deal with their insurance company, not you. I'm obviously being tongue in cheek here (at least I hope it's obvious) but there is a serious implied question and that is as to how hard one should run a mobile charger. Consider the Wattzilla BlackMamba charger (suitable for the Rivian) with 14-60P option which can deliver 48 A. It cannot be used as EVSE becuase, in the US, EVSE cannot be plugged into a receptacle bigger than 14-50R. But suppose I do plug it into a 14 - 50R wired behind a 50A breaker? It will happily draw 48 A and the breaker will never trip. Am I violating anything even if I do this in the US? Well, yes, I am using a rated product in a way which the rating agency did not test. But can an insurance company use that to deny a claim. Am I violating the intention of the sustained load requirements of the code with respect to EVSE. No, because this isn't EVSE. It's a portable charging interface. Certainly if I limit charging period to under 3 hours I'm not violating the spirit of the code with respect to continuous loads because more than 3 hours defines a continuous load. And so on. I don't have any answers here. But obviously if one wants to be conservative he needs to be aware of such things. If one wants to be ultra conservative, which is what I recommend for the poets and Professors of Renaissance Italian Art History, he should not be messing with split phase charging work arounds. Stick to the provided mobile charger and the adapters sold for it by Rivian.
 

electruck

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But can an insurance company use that to deny a claim.
Insurance companies will absolutely use this to deny a claim (if there's enough evidence left after the fire to determine cause). Even if there is no evidence, they will likely start digging into who performed the installation so that they can file a lawsuit to recover damages. And that line of questioning would quickly uncover any... shall we say... irregularities.
 

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Interestingly enough in Canada (or Quebec, anyway) the receptacles in a duplex outlet installed in a kitchen must be on opposite phases. The electrician pulls 12/3 insted of 12/2 (I think they are required to be 20 A) and, of course, that is wired to a 2 pole breaker so all the requirements are met. That's not the usual case. One can obviously kluge something up yourself but the commercially offered units generally have a test lamp that lights only when the two plugs are correctly connected.
I don't know of anyone that parks in their kitchen o_O, And no, they cannot use 12/3 with a shared neutral if they install GFCI protection.

That is true but your UMC hooked to a kluge like this isn't EVSE. The key word in the definition of EVSE (Art. 625) is "installed" and a mobile charger isn't installed.
625.1 Scope. This article covers the electrical conductors and equipment connecting an electric vehicle to premises wiring for the purposes of charging, power export, or bidirectional current flow.

625.2 Definitions.

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE). The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets or apparatuses installed specifically for the purpose of delivering energy from the premises wiring to the electric vehicle.

Portable (as applied to EVSE). A device intended for indoor or outdoor use that can be carried from charging location to charging location and is designed to be transported in the vehicle when not in use.

Note: the other two options are "Fixed in place" and "Fastened in place" with the differentiation being the necessity for tools to remove the device and whether it is connected by a plug or hardwired.

625.44 Equipment Connection. (Electric Vehicle Power Transfer System)

EVSE and WPTE shall be connected to the premises wiring system in accordance with one of the methods in 625.44(A) through (C).

(A) Portable Equipment. Portable equipment shall be connected to the premises wiring systems system by one or more of the following methods:
(1) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 or 20 amperes
(2) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 250 volts, single phase, 15 or 20 amperes
(3) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire or 3-pole, 4-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 250 volts, single phase, 30 or 50 amperes
(4) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 60 volts dc maximum, 15 or 20 amperes

(B) Fastened-in-Place Equipment. Equipment that is fastened in place shall be connected to the premises wiring system by one of the following methods:
(1) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated 125 volts or 250 volts, single phase, up to 50 amperes
(2) A nonlocking, 3-pole, 4-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated 250 volts, three phase, up to 50 amperes
(3) A nonlocking, 3-pole, 4-wire grounding- type receptacle outlet rated 250 volts, single phase, 30 or 50 amperes
(4) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated 60 volts dc maximum, 15 or 20 amperes

(C) Fixed Equipment. All other EVSE and WPTE shall be permanently wired and fixed in place to the supporting surface.

So the inspector isn't going to flunk you or refuse you an occupancy permit if you run such an arrangement at the full 20 A. Besides which, you aren't doing this at home you are doing it at your sister's house or parents house and so if you cause a fire it's they who have to deal with their insurance company, not you. I'm obviously being tongue in cheek here (at least I hope it's obvious) but there is a serious implied question and that is as to how hard one should run a mobile charger. Consider the Wattzilla BlackMamba charger (suitable for the Rivian) with 14-60P option which can deliver 48 A. It cannot be used as EVSE becuase, in the US, EVSE cannot be plugged into a receptacle bigger than 14-50R. But suppose I do plug it into a 14 - 50R wired behind a 50A breaker? It will happily draw 48 A and the breaker will never trip. Am I violating anything even if I do this in the US? Well, yes, I am using a rated product in a way which the rating agency did not test. But can an insurance company use that to deny a claim. Am I violating the intention of the sustained load requirements of the code with respect to EVSE. No, because this isn't EVSE. It's a portable charging interface. Certainly if I limit charging period to under 3 hours I'm not violating the spirit of the code with respect to continuous loads because more than 3 hours defines a continuous load. And so on. I don't have any answers here. But obviously if one wants to be conservative he needs to be aware of such things. If one wants to be ultra conservative, which is what I recommend for the poets and Professors of Renaissance Italian Art History, he should not be messing with split phase charging work arounds. Stick to the provided mobile charger and the adapters sold for it by Rivian.
These rules are not random and were developed for a reason. Yes, almost all of the time you can ignore some of the restrictions in electrical (or other) codes and the device will work great - right up until the time it doesn't. A classic example is how some raised decks are fastened to the house with fewer/different fasteners than required by code. Some last for many years before they collapse while hosting a party or whatever. Garage fires involving EVs are rarely the fault of the EV, but instead can be traced to the charging equipment or wiring/receptacle. Yes it is your personal choice, but the codes do apply to any equipment used to charge an EV - whether it is a "portable charging interface", fixed equipment or fastened in place.
If you've ever sorted thru the contents of a building that has experienced even a small fire (I did content inventory and valuation after fires for insurance companies at one time many years ago), you would likely think that "conservative" doesn't hold the negative connotation as used above.

Now that we've completely diverted from the thread title, carry on :like:
 

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ajdelange

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I don't know of anyone that parks in their kitchen o_O,
I earlier mentioned range outlets and clothes dryers. Indeed no one parks in their kitchens nor in their laundry rooms either. But at my house in Quebec (that has the split phase outlets) its a short extension cord run to the parking area right outside the door. As you didn't object to kitchen or laundry room before I can only conclude that your object in objecting is to object rather than contribute anything positive to the discussion.

And no, they cannot use 12/3 with a shared neutral if they install GFCI protection.
Yes, they certainly can. I have it in my house in Canada. One simply uses a 2 pole GFCI breaker. I'm not in Canada now (and wonder if we will get there this summer) so I can't show you a picture of that but I can show you a picture of my X charging from the arrangement I described (2 pole GFCI breaker) here in Virginia. You have to know how to wire the two phases if there is GFCI involved but I am not getting into that here because, as I said in my last post, unless you have the level of familiarity and understanding of these things that I have aquired over the years it is my opinion that you ought to stick to the manufacturers off the shelf solutions..
Rivian R1T R1S Economic Reasons to Buy an EV instead of a gas powered car IMG_1307





Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE). The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets or apparatuses installed specifically for the purpose of delivering energy from the premises wiring to the electric vehicle. [/QUOTE] Please actually read my last post.




These rules are not random and were developed for a reason.
You seem to think that I am advocating shortcuts. I am not. I would never do that. The point of my previous post was that the code isn't always clear on what is allowed and what isn't. I see nothing in 625 that tells me whether a Tesla UMC is EVSE or not. It isn;t installed so it appears it is not. It's pretty clear what the intention of the continuous load requirements is. Is something that is used in the field for a couple of hours of charging a continuous load? I have a 30 Amp outlet in my brewerey, I would have no hesitation in plugging in a 12 amp heater and leaving it on all night. Could I not do the same with my UMC?


Now that we've completely diverted from the thread title, carry on :like:
These threads do tend to diverge. In this one OP wants to monetize everything so he can stick it in a spreadsheet. It has been suggested that perhaps people buy cars for emotional reasons and OP responds that you can monetize that. One should, therefore, be able to assign a value to anxiety about the availability of charging options. Thus it fits. I'd rather be talking about my experiences driving a Rivian but that ain't going to happen any time soon,
 

jjwolf120

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I earlier mentioned range outlets and clothes dryers. Indeed no one parks in their kitchens nor in their laundry rooms either. But at my house in Quebec (that has the split phase outlets) its a short extension cord run to the parking area right outside the door. As you didn't object to kitchen or laundry room before I can only conclude that your object in objecting is to object rather than contribute anything positive to the discussion.

Yes, they certainly can. I have it in my house in Canada. One simply uses a 2 pole GFCI breaker. I'm not in Canada now (and wonder if we will get there this summer) so I can't show you a picture of that but I can show you a picture of my X charging from the arrangement I described (2 pole GFCI breaker) here in Virginia. You have to know how to wire the two phases if there is GFCI involved but I am not getting into that here because, as I said in my last post, unless you have the level of familiarity and understanding of these things that I have aquired over the years it is my opinion that you ought to stick to the manufacturers off the shelf solutions..
IMG_1307.jpg





Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE). The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets or apparatuses installed specifically for the purpose of delivering energy from the premises wiring to the electric vehicle.
Please actually read my last post.




You seem to think that I am advocating shortcuts. I am not. I would never do that. The point of my previous post was that the code isn't always clear on what is allowed and what isn't. I see nothing in 625 that tells me whether a Tesla UMC is EVSE or not. It isn;t installed so it appears it is not. It's pretty clear what the intention of the continuous load requirements is. Is something that is used in the field for a couple of hours of charging a continuous load? I have a 30 Amp outlet in my brewerey, I would have no hesitation in plugging in a 12 amp heater and leaving it on all night. Could I not do the same with my UMC?




These threads do tend to diverge. In this one OP wants to monetize everything so he can stick it in a spreadsheet. It has been suggested that perhaps people buy cars for emotional reasons and OP responds that you can monetize that. One should, therefore, be able to assign a value to anxiety about the availability of charging options. Thus it fits. I'd rather be talking about my experiences driving a Rivian but that ain't going to happen any time soon,
[/QUOTE]

That depends on your definition of soon. From a geologist perspective, there is negligible time between now and when you will be driving your Rivian. On the other hand, from the perspective of a child, it will be forever before you are driving your Rivian.
 

ajdelange

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I am definitely in, or rapidly approaching, my second childhood.
 

DucRider

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Please actually read my last post.

You seem to think that I am advocating shortcuts. I am not. I would never do that. The point of my previous post was that the code isn't always clear on what is allowed and what isn't. I see nothing in 625 that tells me whether a Tesla UMC is EVSE or not. It isn;t installed so it appears it is not. It's pretty clear what the intention of the continuous load requirements is. Is something that is used in the field for a couple of hours of charging a continuous load? I have a 30 Amp outlet in my brewerey, I would have no hesitation in plugging in a 12 amp heater and leaving it on all night. Could I not do the same with my UMC?
If you actually read the code it applies to portable charging equipment as well as fastened in place and fixed equipment.
625.1 Scope. This article covers the electrical conductors and equipment connecting an electric vehicle to premises wiring for the purposes of charging, power export, or bidirectional current flow.

And your UMC is indeed described in the code:
625.2 Definitions.

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE). The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets or apparatuses installed specifically for the purpose of delivering energy from the premises wiring to the electric vehicle.

Portable (as applied to EVSE). A device intended for indoor or outdoor use that can be carried from charging location to charging location and is designed to be transported in the vehicle when not in use.

And how it can be connected is also defined:
(A) Portable Equipment. Portable equipment shall be connected to the premises wiring systems system by one or more of the following methods:
(1) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 or 20 amperes
(2) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 250 volts, single phase, 15 or 20 amperes
(3) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire or 3-pole, 4-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 250 volts, single phase, 30 or 50 amperes
(4) A nonlocking, 2-pole, 3-wire grounding-type receptacle outlet rated at 60 volts dc maximum, 15 or 20 amperes

And indeed a continuous 12 A draw on a 30 A circuit is no problem. A continuous 48A draw on a 50A circuit is a problem, as is a continuous 20A draw on a 20A circuit. Plugging the UMC into the receptacle on the kludge of two 120V would not present a problem as long as the receptacle was appropriate for the plugs on the kludge (6-15R if 5-15 plugs, 6-20R only if 5-20 Plugs are used)
The UMC is "smart" in that the adapter will define/limit the current it will pull based on the type of outlet/adapter. Most Portable EVSE's are not and someone without your extensive knowledge and experience could easily plug a 16A EVSE (oops - portable charging interface) into what is effectively a 15A circuit with other devices also drawing power from it.

I did forget about the 2 pole GFCI for a multiwire branch circuit. Such circuits are frowned upon where I've lived as the neutral wire could conceivably be burdened with twice it's rated capacity. I've had to troubleshoot where someone tried to install GFCI outlets on a shared neutral with predictable results.
 

ajdelange

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There is some stuff in 625 that could use some tightening op. The conflict between EVSE being defined as installed and portable simultaneously is one. I know I should fill out the card and send it in but I am too lazy.

I reiterate (for I think the third time now) that I do not advocate cutting corners. To be honest about it I'm afraid of the liability. I don't do things that violate code either. I'm afraid of the insurance company. Specifically I do not recommend the dual outlet approach where GFCI is installed because it defeats the GFCI.

Two pole GFCI may have been frowned upon where you live but is required in kitchens where I live (during the summer). I think it's a great idea. A shared neutral wire can never carry more than its rated capacity - only less. The maximum load it will ever carry is limited to the maximum imbalance (difference) between the currents of the circuits sharing it. Thus in a 14-50R receptacle with 50 A loads on each phase the neutral current is 0 if both X and Y are going full 50A. If one of those loads is removed (0 A) then the current in the neutral is maximized at 50 A. There is nothing wrong with GFCI on a shared neutral branch but you have to connect the outlets properly i.e. split the neutral at the input to the outlet. Better to use a GFCI breaker but those guys are expensive.
 
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ajdelange

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Minor point but when I say that the dual outlet kluge defeats the GFCI I mean that the GFCI breaker in the panel won't trip in response to a vehicle ground fault but the GFCI in the charger will. I still don't recommend it as it involves connecting a "listed' device (the UMC) in a manner not tested by the listing laboratory.
 

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Well my Tesla had a lot of issues and I spend more time in the repair shop than I do for my ICE vehicles.

Also if your warranty expired, EV repairs are costly, but they aren't any different than other luxury cars.

I charge at home, used a supercharger twice. So I save money and a bit of time. But personally, I live the EV SUVs benefit I can get a large SUV interior space without having a behemoth sized car.
 
 




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