Can we talk about range again?

[bajadahl]

I want to talk about range again while my Grand Canyon trip is fresh in my mind. I am trying to keep it simple for those of us who have never owned a bev. All this talk about charging rates, curves and C rating makes my head spin..... I realize this is all conjecture at this point but if we take the info Rivian has shared we can extrapolate some possibilities.

Let's say I am a cautious type - I intend to keep my battery for the most part between 10% and 80% which means I am going to lop off 30% of the rated range. Some of this is due to potential charging curve and some is trying to care for thee battery. Anyway if I take that approach then I can calculate the large battery at 300 * 70% = 210 miles or the Max Battery 400 * 70% = 280 miles.

Now for the miles that I actually drive I know that I am not always going to get the "rated range" for that remaining 70%. In fact it could be argued that I will never get the actual rated ranged. So I am trying to come up with a target for that 70% that I will actually get to use.

If I lop off another 15% (of the 70% usable) then my actual highway driving range becomes
Large Pack 210 * 85% = 178.5 miles
Max Pack 280 * 85% = 238 miles

Now Rivian claims we can add 140 miles of range in 20 minutes DCFC (I'm strictly talking highway DCFC here) I realize there will be some as of yet unknown curve applied which means the charge rate isn't linear. But as a guess I will argue that 30 minutes get's me close to 200 miles of range and 40 minutes might get me close to the 238 miles that the Max pack "offers"

I also understand that the Nav system will try to do all of these calculations for me... but I like planning road trips in advance with very specific stops... I don't care that you have to pee... put a knot in it until our scheduled stop.....

Seriously - are my assumptions reasonable... even conservative maybe? Can I almost aways count on 238 miles of range in that 70% of the Max pack. I know the weather conditions, road conditions, and speed matter. Would you be happy with these range estimates? I am hoping that the 15% loss accounts for highway driving at between 75-80 like most interstates out west allow.

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[Gshenderson]

I think that’s reasonable for ball parking things. Just realize that if you’re doing a round trip, let’s say up into the mountains, your consumption per mile will be very different on the way up vs coming back down. You may even get better than advertised mileage if there’s a significant elevation drop between you start and end point.

I’ve used a website in the past called EVTripPlanner.com. Does a good job of factoring in various environmental conditions, speed and whatnot. I like the raw data is spits out vs. just calculating mileage from a black box algorithm. I’ve found this app to be fairly accurate. Hopefully they’ll add Rivian to the list of selectable vehicles. Currently it’s fairly focused on Teslas.

 

[mkennedy1996]

I want to talk about range again while my Grand Canyon trip is fresh in my mind. I am trying to keep it simple for those of us who have never owned a bev. All this talk about charging rates, curves and C rating makes my head spin..... I realize this is all conjecture at this point but if we take the info Rivian has shared we can extrapolate some possibilities.

Let's say I am a cautious type - I intend to keep my battery for the most part between 10% and 80% which means I am going to lop off 30% of the rated range. Some of this is due to potential charging curve and some is trying to care for thee battery. Anyway if I take that approach then I can calculate the large battery at 300 * 70% = 210 miles or the Max Battery 400 * 70% = 280 miles.

Now for the miles that I actually drive I know that I am not always going to get the "rated range" for that remaining 70%. In fact it could be argued that I will never get the actual rated ranged. So I am trying to come up with a target for that 70% that I will actually get to use.

If I lop off another 15% (of the 70% usable) then my actual highway driving range becomes
Large Pack 210 * 85% = 178.5 miles
Max Pack 280 * 85% = 238 miles

Now Rivian claims we can add 140 miles of range in 20 minutes DCFC (I'm strictly talking highway DCFC here) I realize there will be some as of yet unknown curve applied which means the charge rate isn't linear. But as a guess I will argue that 30 minutes get's me close to 200 miles of range and 40 minutes might get me close to the 238 miles that the Max pack "offers"

I also understand that the Nav system will try to do all of these calculations for me... but I like planning road trips in advance with very specific stops... I don't care that you have to pee... put a knot in it until our scheduled stop.....

Seriously - are my assumptions reasonable... even conservative maybe? Can I almost aways count on 238 miles of range in that 70% of the Max pack. I know the weather conditions, road conditions, and speed matter. Would you be happy with these range estimates? I am hoping that the 15% loss accounts for highway driving at between 75-80 like most interstates out west allow.

We do not know how aggressive Rivian is going to be in trying to maximize their EPA range rating. There are ways they can go for the highest range possible, but is not achievable in the real world (This is the Tesla approach). Or their EPA rating could end up like the Taycan, which is easily exceeded.

In three of my Teslas, I have averaged between 77 and 81% of the rated range. This covers a five year time period in various conditions. I drive my cars and don't baby them. So for me, using 85% is too high, but your driving style and highway speeds will dictate what percentage to use.

Also remember, that the quoted range is as of day 1 and will degrade every year. On three of my Teslas, my degradation is 5.6, 7.7 and 8.5 miles of range loss (battery degradation) for every 10,000 mile driven.

Towing, rain, snow, elevation, low or high temps etc all impact that 85% as well.

 

[timesinks]

Focusing on the road trip case, you can charge up to 100% for the beginning of your day. Since you'll be using that energy right away, it shouldn't be a major concern for long term health of your battery (and, caveat all of the bits about not having official recommendations from Rivian for their batteries and BMS and all that... they may well say this is fine for daily driving use too).

After that, the main reason you won't usually want to charge beyond 80% is optimizing the time spent charging. If you're trying to do a 600-mile stretch as quickly as possible, 2 shorter charge stops may well take less total time than 1 longer charge stop. ABRP can help you mock up different scenarios here, but you should notice that it will often suggest that you stop more often rather than take more charge in a single stop.

But, if you have stops you want to make anyways. And those stops have adequate charging infrastructure for the duration of your stop, then you're not necessarily trying to maximize the charge curve at that stop. For example, if you're planning a 2-hour picnic stop, you may be perfectly happy with a slower 50kW charger. You won't notice -- you were hanging out that long anyways.

Incorporating charging into stops you were going to make anyways is optimal, even if you're not maximizing charge speeds or minimizing time spent on the charger. This is why Level 2 chargers are great for trail heads, ski areas, hotels, etc.. If you need a longer push between planned stops-with-chargers, you'll need to think about how long you want to stop. A somewhat slower charger is more tolerable if you're going to hang out for a meal, but if you're alongside a highway in the middle of nowhere, you probably want to take that energy as fast as possible and go.

 

[hed]

I always assume something is always going to cost 30% more than anticipated or take 30% longer than estimated, with that, here's my take.

If we are talking taking a trip then you will most likely charge the battery full. Let's say for the sake of argument that's 300 miles. At 70-75 mph I would expect to get 25% - 30% of that if it isn't winter time. So 25% of 300 miles = is 225 miles. As you mentioned, there are so many variables that can affect that number.

In general, driving my EV like a ICE car, my personal baseline is 20%-30% of stated range (depending on variables at the time of the trip) in warmer months, 40% - 50% of stated range if its cold out.

I only charge to 80% since my commute is less than 150 miles a day. So day to day driving range really isn't a concern at all and where, for most people, an EV really shines.

 

[mkennedy1996]

I want to talk about range again while my Grand Canyon trip is fresh in my mind. I am trying to keep it simple for those of us who have never owned a bev. All this talk about charging rates, curves and C rating makes my head spin..... I realize this is all conjecture at this point but if we take the info Rivian has shared we can extrapolate some possibilities.

Let's say I am a cautious type - I intend to keep my battery for the most part between 10% and 80% which means I am going to lop off 30% of the rated range. Some of this is due to potential charging curve and some is trying to care for thee battery. Anyway if I take that approach then I can calculate the large battery at 300 * 70% = 210 miles or the Max Battery 400 * 70% = 280 miles.

Now for the miles that I actually drive I know that I am not always going to get the "rated range" for that remaining 70%. In fact it could be argued that I will never get the actual rated ranged. So I am trying to come up with a target for that 70% that I will actually get to use.

If I lop off another 15% (of the 70% usable) then my actual highway driving range becomes
Large Pack 210 * 85% = 178.5 miles
Max Pack 280 * 85% = 238 miles

Now Rivian claims we can add 140 miles of range in 20 minutes DCFC (I'm strictly talking highway DCFC here) I realize there will be some as of yet unknown curve applied which means the charge rate isn't linear. But as a guess I will argue that 30 minutes get's me close to 200 miles of range and 40 minutes might get me close to the 238 miles that the Max pack "offers"

I also understand that the Nav system will try to do all of these calculations for me... but I like planning road trips in advance with very specific stops... I don't care that you have to pee... put a knot in it until our scheduled stop.....

Seriously - are my assumptions reasonable... even conservative maybe? Can I almost aways count on 238 miles of range in that 70% of the Max pack. I know the weather conditions, road conditions, and speed matter. Would you be happy with these range estimates? I am hoping that the 15% loss accounts for highway driving at between 75-80 like most interstates out west allow.

Here are some charts to consider:
Battery Degradation for our first X:

Efficiency of the car vs. quoted efficiency:

After battery degradation and my driving efficiency, the Realistic Range of the car at 100% went from 250 down to 186 and a 90% charge went down to a range of just 167 miles:

 

[n8dgr8]

I think you can use more of the top end of your pack without any harm. We keep our Tesla at 90% and have seen about a 5% drop in range over 6 years. A periodic 100% charge is supposed to be good for things and help balance all of the cells.

One thing people don't talk about is that high speed charging rates go down with age. Your pack may have really good range but it doesn't charge as fast as when it was new. Our Tesla has done much better than expected keeping the range up but charging times at the Super Chargers went from 20 minutes to 30 minutes. Same trip and same location on multiple occurrences without sharing stalls.

The newer batteries keep getting better and better too.

 

[BigE]

I want to talk about range again while my Grand Canyon trip is fresh in my mind. I am trying to keep it simple for those of us who have never owned a bev. All this talk about charging rates, curves and C rating makes my head spin..... I realize this is all conjecture at this point but if we take the info Rivian has shared we can extrapolate some possibilities.

Let's say I am a cautious type - I intend to keep my battery for the most part between 10% and 80% which means I am going to lop off 30% of the rated range. Some of this is due to potential charging curve and some is trying to care for thee battery. Anyway if I take that approach then I can calculate the large battery at 300 * 70% = 210 miles or the Max Battery 400 * 70% = 280 miles.

Now for the miles that I actually drive I know that I am not always going to get the "rated range" for that remaining 70%. In fact it could be argued that I will never get the actual rated ranged. So I am trying to come up with a target for that 70% that I will actually get to use.

If I lop off another 15% (of the 70% usable) then my actual highway driving range becomes
Large Pack 210 * 85% = 178.5 miles
Max Pack 280 * 85% = 238 miles

Now Rivian claims we can add 140 miles of range in 20 minutes DCFC (I'm strictly talking highway DCFC here) I realize there will be some as of yet unknown curve applied which means the charge rate isn't linear. But as a guess I will argue that 30 minutes get's me close to 200 miles of range and 40 minutes might get me close to the 238 miles that the Max pack "offers"

I also understand that the Nav system will try to do all of these calculations for me... but I like planning road trips in advance with very specific stops... I don't care that you have to pee... put a knot in it until our scheduled stop.....

Seriously - are my assumptions reasonable... even conservative maybe? Can I almost aways count on 238 miles of range in that 70% of the Max pack. I know the weather conditions, road conditions, and speed matter. Would you be happy with these range estimates? I am hoping that the 15% loss accounts for highway driving at between 75-80 like most interstates out west allow.

I have an R1T Max on Pre-order. My guesstimate for travel is ~240 miles of max range, so in-line with your estimate.

 

[bajadahl]

Thanks guys -I appreciate all the insight. I am sure I will charge higher especially at the beginning of a trip. I was more curious about how I am going to handle those 700+ mile days. Coming back from Flagstaff we stopped in Winslow, Painted Desert, and Albuquerque, before finishing the day in Lubbock. I went back over my GPS routing just trying to do the rough calculations of how I would have done that same route in a Rivian.

 

[LeoH]

Your assumptions are more or less correct. I charge my Tesla to 90% and I get about 70% of that. But, I live in Illinois, the cold weather eats up my battery, so of my 90% I get a bit more than half, but that can be over couple of days, so the battery needs to warmup more often, if I do 1 trip, I would probably get more juice.

I never did long trips with either of my 2 Teslas , not because of the range, but because I do not trust the car or the chargers to give the advertised juice. I supercharged 4 times I think, and in all but 1 I was getting hideous charge. So travelling with kids long distances will be worse to my health than the price of gas I save, so I take my Sienna none of my trips are over 360 miles, so if I get R1S with max pack, I might be able to make it with 1 short 10 minute stop in the middle, grab a bite and bathroom break.

 

[n8dgr8]

Your assumptions are more or less correct. I charge my Tesla to 90% and I get about 70% of that. But, I live in Illinois, the cold weather eats up my battery, so of my 90% I get a bit more than half, but that can be over couple of days, so the battery needs to warmup more often, if I do 1 trip, I would probably get more juice.

I never did long trips with either of my 2 Teslas , not because of the range, but because I do not trust the car or the chargers to give the advertised juice. I supercharged 4 times I think, and in all but 1 I was getting hideous charge. So travelling with kids long distances will be worse to my health than the price of gas I save, so I take my Sienna none of my trips are over 360 miles, so if I get R1S with max pack, I might be able to make it with 1 short 10 minute stop in the middle, grab a bite and bathroom break.

DC charging is all about location. Restaurants, shopping, walking all help pass the time. Nothing worse than a 40 minute charge on a cold, rainy night with nothing to do and no place to stretch your legs.

 

[jayazusa]

Thanks guys -I appreciate all the insight. I am sure I will charge higher especially at the beginning of a trip. I was more curious about how I am going to handle those 700+ mile days. Coming back from Flagstaff we stopped in Winslow, Painted Desert, and Albuquerque, before finishing the day in Lubbock. I went back over my GPS routing just trying to do the rough calculations of how I would have done that same route in a Rivian.

Look at ABRP it allows you to select the rivian with the battery pack size you plan on getting to plan your route. As stated your driving style will impact the actual range, I know there are electrify America chargers in flagstaff and Winslow not sure the rest of the way, but will give you a good idea.

 

[bajadahl]

Look at ABRP it allows you to select the rivian with the battery pack size you plan on getting to plan your route. As stated your driving style will impact the actual range, I know there are electrify America chargers in flagstaff and Winslow not sure the rest of the way, but will give you a good idea.

Oh yes - I have spent many hours playing with ABRP. In my mind it still has trouble with some routes. Routes that I know the mileage and fastest way yet ABRP struggles to let me take a known good route. For example - from my house to the EA charger in Sweetwater, TX is 259 miles. With the R1S 180(Alpha) charged to 100% it won't choose the fastest route. If I attempt to force it to use the shortest (fastest) route (highway 71) it still wants me to detour.... It's a little bit maddening....

 

[bajadahl]

I can finally get it to use the best route if I force one more waypoint...

 

[bajadahl]

If I don't give it any waypoints it automatically chooses a 40 mile longer route. These are all with the exact same settings. I think ABRP is great for general planning but it's not perfect.

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