California Announces Ban on Sale of New Gasoline-Powered Passenger Vehicles Starting 2035

azbill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
253
Reaction score
159
Location
Arizona
First Name
Bill
Vehicles
GMC Sierra, Bolt, Sky
Occupation
Engineer
Do you know there are over 140 Lithium mines in various parts of the world "proposed" but stuck in various stages of permitting and NI-4301 mine lifecycle studies to get funding. If you knew anything on mining, you would know it is not as simple as put your shovel in the ground and dig. To open a mine today you have to prove you have the funding to return the entire mine to the way it was before you touched it and you are environmentally responsible throughout it's lifecycle and the product delivery it produces.
The question for me is this, is California going to lead the way and open up more land to mining? We need more than lithium, also cobalt for batteries and copper for the motor windings for the electric motors, as well as for the wind generators. And also all the concrete and iron for building things like wind turbine and solar panel farms.

The answer of course from California will be a big flat NO WAY, not in my backyard. So all of these new mines will be placed in places like Africa and South America and China, where the people of California cannot see the environmental impacts, thus they can feel really good about themselves.
 

jjwolf120

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
241
Reaction score
209
Location
Arcadia
First Name
John
Vehicles
Toyota Highlander Hybrid
Occupation
TPA
The answer of course from California will be a big flat NO WAY, not in my backyard. So all of these new mines will be placed in places like Africa and South America and China, where the people of California cannot see the environmental impacts, thus they can feel really good about themselves.
Or in Nevada and North Carolina. For mines to be in California, there needs to be deposites of the the appropriate resource. Which of these items is actually present in California that people wish to mine?

There is a project that is trying to extract Lithium from the Salton Sea in California and some proposals to drill for lithium in Death Valley. The later is meeting with protests from environmentalist, however.
 

Colosaleen

Member
First Name
Rick
Joined
Nov 1, 2019
Messages
16
Reaction score
24
Location
Colorado
First Name
Rick
Vehicles
Porsche Cayenne Turbo, Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, Aston Martin Vantage Roadster, Dodge Viper RT/10, Saleen S351R Speedster
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
OK, I did some simple math based on numbers from the state of California which shows that the additional electric load would be about 0.5%. I don't know what this has to do with any matrix algebra on the part of any dual citizen so perhaps I shouldn't even be responding here. But the notion that California cannot support an additional half percent load per year is plainly ridiculous.
Again, you proved my point. Where is the time of day demand, where are the additional vehicles into state for tourist demand, delivery trucks into state demand, additional demand from ever increasing power requirements from industry, utility, etc. Grids are complex, it is not as simple as stating well it is 0.5%. That is an average across the state. It’s a big state. There will be pockets that need much more that that. You just can not over-simplify the issue.

As far as dual citizen, I am one too, just from Western Canada not Eastern. Just noticed it in your profile but you are right, it was not to disparage and was not relevant to the discussion. It was not to offend and if I did than I apologize.

In the end, energy has a price and a negative side to ALL of it. Well maybe not Fusion. It’s just what is acceptable for efficiency and for the byproduct.

Again I commend Rivian for the approach taken in parts sourcing and believe strongly in their product they are building. Should they choose to tackle the battery recycle portion during and end of lifecycle, I think they would have a leg up on everyone else in that argument. The electricity to power the vehicle will always be from what is available. Just because you pay a surcharge on your power bill to say it comes from green energy means nothing from where your power truly comes from.

Battery recycling is going to be a massive problem in the future and is even today. In present worldwide market, electric batteries do nothing for energy independence unless you produce everything needed to support them. It is for this reason alone, ICE will not disappear in 14 years or the 19 years for diesel. They will co-exist for our lifetimes and that of our kids. Doesn’t mean the %relevances will not change as they will absolutely, but will never be a one or the other choice.
 

azbill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
253
Reaction score
159
Location
Arizona
First Name
Bill
Vehicles
GMC Sierra, Bolt, Sky
Occupation
Engineer
Or in Nevada and North Carolina. For mines to be in California, there needs to be deposites of the the appropriate resource. Which of these items is actually present in California that people wish to mine?

There is a project that is trying to extract Lithium from the Salton Sea in California and some proposals to drill for lithium in Death Valley. The later is meeting with protests from environmentalist, however.
Exactly my point. Nothing is completely environmentally friendly, it is a matter of degree. We have many copper mines in Arizona, which are critical to electrification, and environmentalist loath them.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
993
Reaction score
468
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
Again, you proved my point.
I'd be better able to assess that if I could figure out what your point is. I think it is:

..to support that level of EVs. Sorry but there is no amount of wind and solar to achieve that.
Clearly there is plenty.

Now whether the state of California can tap it is another question. That is what caused me to post in No. 13.

The political reality is that the government is bound to stuff it up just as it stuffs up everything
California seems particularly adept at "stuffing it up" when it comes to energy. It has some of the highest rates in the country. It closes down its nuclear plants for "social reasons". It uses PG&E as a whipping boy at every opportunity...

Where is the time of day demand,
The duck back curve is widely published. Recognition of it was what caused me to post (also in No. 13.):
The technology related question is storage.

..
where are the additional vehicles into state for tourist demand, delivery trucks into state demand, additional demand from ever increasing power requirements from industry, utility, etc
Interesting question. The bloom seems to be off the California rose. The population growth rate is trending towards 0. Businesses are leaving the state (Tesla may do so). Should I assume that 20% of the cars on the road are from out of state? OK. That makes the additional demand 0.6%

Grids are complex, it is not as simple as stating well it is 0.5%. That is an average across the state. It’s a big state.
Engineers have some ability to do statistical analysis (at least some of us can).

There will be pockets that need much more that that.
Yes, of course there will. So?


You just can not over-simplify the issue.
Well you don't start with looking at individual trees when trying to assess a forest. Obviously I haven't done a detailed analysis but California's annual production over the last 10 years shows a coefficient of variation of 1.75%. Any prudent analyst would conclude from this that the system could very probably withstand a variance of 0.6%.

As far as dual citizen, I am one too, ... Just noticed it in your profile. ... if I did than I apologize.
It was not a question of offense. The question was as to who this dual citizen was and how matrix algebra was involved. My profile suggests that I live in Canada part of the year. It does not suggest that I am a dual citizen.


In the end, energy has a price..
Really?


...and a negative side to ALL of it. Well maybe not Fusion. It’s just what is acceptable for efficiency and for the byproduct.
What?

Just because you pay a surcharge on your power bill to say it comes from green energy means nothing from where your power truly comes from.
No but it does mean that someone somewhere produced some green energy so you are supporting that. If people didn't buy RECs (and I agree that you are a sucker if you do) then some small company with a couple of wind turbines couldn't operate because they can't generate electricity at competitive rates and be profitable. I'm all for renewable energy but would much rather have the starry eyed tree huggers subsidize it through RECs than having it subsidized by me through taxes.


Battery recycling is going to be a massive problem in the future and is even today.
Don't think so. Batteries are going to be recycled in order to recover the metals for reuse. The technologies are being developed to do that now. Take out the metals and what's left? Plastics and the electrolyte. The electrolytes today are things like alkane carbonates and if not recoverable will probably be burned. This means a CO2 load, of course but in the near future the electrolytes will probably be glasses i.e. sand. Not to mention that the battery that comes out of a car will still have years of usable life in an energy storage application. Remember that the main problem with renewable electrical energy today is not generating capacity. It is storage needed to level the duck's neck with his back.
 
Last edited:

Advertisement












 


Advertisement


Top