Battery Swapping

[Jmiller929]

I have read a lot about NIO, a Chinese high end EV manufacture. They have developed a automated battery swapping technology that seems to me the way to go. Instead of waiting 45 minutes to an hour to charge you vehicle, you pull into their battery swap center and within 5 minutes they replace your battery with a fully changed new one.

They have centers scattered through out China and if you are to believe everything you read, they do hundreds a day. You can also opt to buy your car without a battery, knocking about 10 grand off the price and sign up (for a monthly rate) to use their batteries through their swapping stations. Besides saving a lot of time you are always assured to get the latest state of art battery.

I wonder why US companies have not gone that route?

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[Babbuino]

I have read a lot about NIO, a Chinese high end EV manufacture. They have developed a automated battery swapping technology that seems to me the way to go. Instead of waiting 45 minutes to an hour to charge you vehicle, you pull into their battery swap center and within 5 minutes they replace your battery with a fully changed new one.

They have centers scattered through out China and if you are to believe everything you read, they do hundreds a day. You can also opt to buy your car without a battery, knocking about 10 grand off the price and sign up (for a monthly rate) to use their batteries through their swapping stations. Besides saving a lot of time you are always assured to get the latest state of art battery.

I wonder why US companies have not gone that route?

Tesla looked into this, but decided against going that route. Here is an article that talks about that.

https://www.torquenews.com/5474/how-can-tesla-battery-swap-work-now-after-million-mile-batteries

 

[jjwolf120]

I wonder why US companies have not gone that route?

I suspect one of the reasons is that it requires the manufacturer to produce a bunch of extra battery packs. Tesla is battery constrained, so they would have to reduce vehicle production in order to have battery packs available for switching. Think of the nightmare of having enough battery packs available on a big traffic day.

 

[Jmiller929]

I suspect one of the reasons is that it requires the manufacturer to produce a bunch of extra battery packs. Tesla is battery constrained, so they would have to reduce vehicle production in order to have battery packs available for switching. Think of the nightmare of having enough battery packs available on a big traffic day.

That is a business venture all on its own.

 

[ajdelange]

Tesla had such a system and the demos were pretty neat but I think it is pretty clear that this isn't a good way to go. Yes, you could get a new battery in faster than you could fill an ICE vehicle with gas but that assumes that there is an empty swapping station available for each car as it arrives. There were questions as to who would own the batteries and how a driver would react if he took in his brand new whatever and left the station with a tired old battery with 10% less range.

China hasn't nearly the charging infrastructure of the US and NIOs approach, therefore, makes more sense over there than it does here.

The manufacturers realize that the battery needs to be well armored and that means making them tough to the point where they become a structural member of the car. At least that's where Tesla is going with the CT.

Neat concept but....

 

[jjwolf120]

That is a business venture all on its own.

A very capital intensive business. How much can you charge for a battery swap $20, $30, $40? How much does a battery pack cost? How many will you do in a day. I don't think the math works out.

 

[Jmiller929]

Tesla had such a system and the demos were pretty neat but I think it is pretty clear that this isn't a good way to go. Yes, you could get a new battery in faster than you could fill an ICE vehicle with gas but that assumes that there is an empty swapping station available for each car as it arrives. There were questions as to who would own the batteries and how a driver would react if he took in his brand new whatever and left the station with a tired old battery with 10% less range.

China hasn't nearly the charging infrastructure of the US and NIOs approach, therefore, makes more sense over there than it does here.

The manufacturers realize that the battery needs to be well armored and that means making them tough to the point where they become a structural member of the car. At least that's where Tesla is going with the CT.

Neat concept but....

At the end of 2019 China had over 466,000 charging stations, which is way ahead of the US. There government is really pushing EV's and I read that they are actually putting limited days gas vehicles can drive certain highways. So its a big push. Not a big fan of China, but I like the ideal a lot. There would at some point have to be some standardization so there are not a million different types of batteries.

Of course, it would tough to do now because we are in the middle of a battle to design a EV with the longest range, and everyone is keeping their technology close to their vest, but maybe at some point it would make sense.

 

[Jmiller929]

A very capital intensive business. How much can you charge for a battery swap $20, $30, $40? How much does a battery pack cost? How many will you do in a day. I don't think the math works out.

Remember you are recharging and swapping the same batteries. They are saying they are good for a million miles, so that is a lot of reselling. If you could charge the battery in an hour and re-rent several times a day that would add up fast. I believe a battery cost about 10 grand. So let say you rent one battery 8 times in a 24 hour period. Over a year, that is a pretty big profit per battery at $20 a pop.

 

[jjwolf120]

Remember you are recharging and swapping the same batteries.

No, you're not. You need to have a charged battery available at all times, which means that you have to buy at least one battery pack and probably several battery packs. It is a very long payoff on investment and it takes more infrastructure than a charging station. There is a reason why Tesla abandoned this idea.

 

[Jmiller929]

No, you're not. You need to have a charged battery available at all times, which means that you have to buy at least one battery pack and probably several battery packs. It is a very long payoff on investment and it takes more infrastructure than a charging station. There is a reason why Tesla abandoned this idea.

Of course, you would have to be charging several batteries at all times. You are correct that the structure would need to be bigger. But with technology changing so fast, would you not want to be able to swap for a battery that is state of art, increasing your distant instead of stuck with a lower mileage battery. I would. I certainly do not have all the answers, but I like NIO’s approach. We will see if it continues to work for them.

 

[davrow_R1T]

Besides saving a lot of time you are always assured to get the latest state of art battery.

What gives you that idea? What you will get, based on any previous exchange experience, is the crappiest, shortest range battery they have in the back storage room.

 

[jjwolf120]

But with technology changing so fast, would you not want to be able to swap for a battery that is state of art

So, you expect them to charge a minimal fee and buy new battery packs for every car that gets their battery exchanged at the shop?

 

[azbill]

Guess this really helps with their battery recall ...

https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/27/18761067/nio-es8-electric-suv-recall-battery-fires-china

 

[Jmiller929]

What gives you that idea? What you will get, based on any previous exchange experience, is the crappiest, shortest range battery they have in the back storage room.

You have to look at the big picture. If EV are the future than batteries will become big business. Like everything else, over time the technology will become must cheaper and more competitive. You drop off an depleted battery, they install a charged battery, they charge the drop off and install it later in another EV. They can turn over a battery several times a day. As the battery ages, they replace them with the most state of the art battery available, so it keeps the technology as current as possible. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are plus and minus's but personally l like the convenience. Either way, looking forward to my Rivian.

 

[ajdelange]

Tesla has looked at the big picture into the future. They have decided that while this is an intriguing idea worthy of investigation to the point of producing prototype battery swapping hardware, it isn't practical in terms of the technology Tesla plans to have in its cars.

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