Anyone else completely disappointed that MaxPack battery not available until 2023?

[SANZC02]

It would be nice for them do something for the early max pack reservation holders, I agree, but I am just not sure what. A discount, something included? And if you give the early max pack holders something, other people will want something also, or think if they sign up for max pack now, they also get something for free.

They could do things but most people will still not be happy.

They did the DSP during the IPO for reservation holders, that was a pleasant surprise, seems to have garnered very little goodwill on these forums.

So far they have ignored the 1.23% 2020 and the 6.8% 2021 inflation numbers, compounded that is 8.11% over the 2 years. This already for a truck that seems to be an incredible value based on the specs and available alternatives. If they do not raise the current price it is like getting an 8% discount.

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[mgc0216]

They could do things but most people will still not be happy.

They did the DSP during the IPO for reservation holders, that was a pleasant surprise, seems to have garnered very little goodwill on these forums.

So far they have ignored the 1.23% 2020 and the 6.8% 2021 inflation numbers, compounded that is 8.11% over the 2 years. This already for a truck that seems to be an incredible value based on the specs and available alternatives. If they do not raise the current price it is like getting an 8% discount.

Ser, your logic will not be tolerated. Many here are offended by rational discussion, and prefer conspiracy theories and general grousing.

 

[kizamybute']

I’m in your boat. July 2019 preorder and max pack. I am extremely upset with Rivian and why they don’t respect the order of preorders. Seems like they are punishing those that have been with them for a really long time. They aren’t even offering free charging or anything else for those that have been with them for over two years. It doesn’t make sense that someone who orders a Rivian two years after me can get the truck about a year before me. I’m undecided on what to do. When they call in January I will definitely have a lot to say regarding them keeping me as a customer. I passed up the launch edition to get the max pack and now they are saying I can change my order to a large pack, which is basically the launch edition, and take delivery earlier, but not as early as the launch edition. It’s frustrating and to top it off I waited 2.5 years since preorder to test drive the truck and now I would have to wait about 1.5 years since test drive to possibly get the max pack. I understand there is a supply and demand issue, but don’t penalize the early adopters and allow “cutsies” to those that order after the early adopters.

I don't think it has to do anything with the preorder list or what order they were taken in. It's simply due to the fact that they haven't yet figured out the max pack. There's been no info on them testing one or any word what so ever. That indicates that, while it is their intention to build a 400 mile battery, they haven't successfully done so as of yet. May exist, but probably not getting the results from it that they were hoping for, thus need more time to work on it. Naturally, they're not going to hold up what they do have developed and ready to deliver. Thus, the max pack pre-order holders ALL get moved back, simply because it doesn't exist yet. At least not in a manner that's ready to be produced and delivered to customers. So, I wouldn't take it personal. Unfortunately, just the limitations of a start-up company doing something completely new. They haven't quite figured out the max pack yet and therefore can't deliver it yet. If you order what they do have available, then your place in line will move up appropriately. Certainly sucks. I wanted the max pack too, but realize I can live with the Large Pack and would rather have it a year sooner with 100 miles less range that I'll almost never actually need anyway. For the 2, 3 or 4 occasions a year it would have come in handy, I'll guess I'll just have to make that one extra charging stop along the way. A small price to pay for getting it a year sooner and reaping the benefits I will get every other day of the year.

 

[Budman]

I ordered a Max Pack and thought I really needed it. After learning of the delay in shipping the max pack I started to really look into the range impact. Found a couple good web apps that display driving distances on a map from a given location. I live in Minneapolis, the dark grey is a 310 mile range (standard battery pack) and the light grey is a 420 mile range (my guess at the Max Pack range). When I saw it on a map like this I'm thinking the $10,000 for the max pack is not going to make a big enough difference often enough to justify the cost and wait time. Of course the ranges will be less in the winter and I'll have to think about that some more before I really commit. But graphing it out like this may help other like me come to a more informed decision.

 

[sierraskier]

And since the max pack was always coming later it’s easier to push it out.

This is simply not true. For the first few YEARS there was not even a "Large Pack" - all R1T specs were for a 400+ mile range, aka the "Max Pack". Even after they introduced a shorter range Large Pack option, Rivian stated many times for a long period (months, possibly even a year +) that the first trucks delivered would be the longest range and most equipped trim models.

 

[sierraskier]

yea but right off the bat you are already taking a hit on range due to driving habits and weather. Just like mpg in ICE vehicles, EV estimates are tested in perfect conditions.

THIS. I am amazed at how many people think that ~315mi range, on the best day in the most optimal conditions, which will immediately end up being anywhere from less to a lot less, due to battery optimization/conditioning, AT tires, payload, terrain, and adverse weather for a truck / SUV is adequate.

This thread summarizes it: https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...now-tires-roof-box-low-temperatures-etc.3192/

If you are one of those owners that live in flat-land suburbia and own a truck / SUV to run the kids to school, practice and do grocery store runs 99.9% of the time with 1 token off-road excursion a year, then yes ~200-250mi of useable range will work for you. But if you are someone who will actually use this truck for its intended purpose and capabilities AND/OR live in the mountain winter climate this is kind of a deal breaker.

 

[Attesan997]

THIS. I am amazed at how many people think that ~315mi range, on the best day in the most optimal conditions, which will immediately end up being anywhere from less to a lot less, due to battery optimization/conditioning, AT tires, payload, terrain, and adverse weather for a truck / SUV is adequate.

This thread summarizes it: https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...now-tires-roof-box-low-temperatures-etc.3192/

If you one of those owners that live in flat-land suburbia and own a truck / SUV to run the kids to school, practice and do grocery store runs 99.9% of the time with 1 token off-road excursion a year, then yes ~200-250mi of useable range will work for you. But if you are someone who will actually use this truck for its intended purpose and capabilities AND/OR live in the mountain winter climate this is kind of a deal breaker.

There's probably a happy medium between Costco runs and extreme off roading every day. It seems Rivian's goal was to hit a sweet spot. It's certainly not going to be capable of 300+ miles of extreme off road excursions on a single charge if only for the fact that you'd have to get to and from your destination with many variables reducing the standard range. I'd say a large percentage of buyers will have access to charging at home (or local DC charger) so the day to day stuff is covered. It's just the road trip or excursion side of things that require extra planning. Being early adopters, I'd think there's a reasonable expectation the "figuring out" is part of the deal. Will and ideal 300+ miles work for every use case, absolutely not. The electric truck/adventure vehicle is a somewhat new space. Maybe someone will figure it a better sweet spot in the future.

 

[sierraskier]

There's probably a happy medium between Costco runs and extreme off roading every day. It seems Rivian's goal was to hit a sweet spot. It's certainly not going to be capable of 300+ miles of extreme off road excursions on a single charge if only for the fact that you'd have to get to and from your destination with many variables reducing the standard range. I'd say a large percentage of buyers will have access to charging at home (or local DC charger) so the day to day stuff is covered. It's just the road trip or excursion side of things that require extra planning. Being early adopters, I'd think there's a reasonable expectation the "figuring out" is part of the deal. Will 300+ miles work for every use case, absolutely not. The electric truck/adventure vehicle is a somewhat new space. Maybe someone will figure it a better sweet spot in the future.

This kind of proves my point - I guess people just don't comprehend that 315mi of EPA-tested range will almost never be >300mi of actual useable range, even in ideal conditions just due to the fact that you don't want to be charging the battery to 100% frequently for optimal battery health and longevity and even if you could, you dont' want to be running it down to <10%, for both battery health health and more importantly, to leave a little buffer so you don't end up stranded on the side of the road somewhere. Then, you can start throwing in all the other variables that will decrease your range further: driving habits, temperature, weather/wind, road surface, payload, etc.

 

[OverZealous]

This kind of proves my point - I guess people just don't comprehend that 315mi of EPA-tested range will almost never be >300mi of actual useable range

I think a lot of people thinking this simply haven't owned an electric as their full-time vehicle, or if they do, are fortunate enough to live in a coastal area where chargers are plentiful and there's always one nearby.

I've mentioned this before on the forums, but even 400 isn't quite the sweet spot for me, it's really 500. 400 would work in 99% of cases, though.

It's not about the linear driving (getting from point A to B) in ideal conditions for this extra range. We've driven all over the place in a car that maxes at 260-270 miles at 100%. (But the drive from Kentucky to Florida and back was getting pretty long. Still, not unreasonable.)

The day trips (getting from A-to-B, driving around B, and then getting back to A) are where you really feel the pain of a sub-300 mile range. Especially somewhere where fast charging options are pretty much limited to highway driving—and those are often in select areas so you only have one every 100-150 miles (and this is with the massive Supercharger network).

Even with normal A-to-B vacation driving, you don't always have access to rapid charging at your destination. When we visit my in-laws, I only have access to 120V level-1. So unless we want to make a special stop somewhere and sit around for 30-40 minutes, it takes 2-3 days to bring the battery back up. And this is only an 85kWh battery. With a 135kWh one, it'd probably take longer than our entire trip!

All that being said, I'm now debating on seeing how soon we'd get the pickup with the large pack, then getting a second order placed so we can think about getting an R1S with extended range later on for longer trips. I'd prefer to have a single vehicle that can do it all, but I am also tired of getting something fixed on our Model S every year.

 

[Doug]

I ordered a Max Pack and thought I really needed it. After learning of the delay in shipping the max pack I started to really look into the range impact. Found a couple good web apps that display driving distances on a map from a given location. I live in Minneapolis, the dark grey is a 310 mile range (standard battery pack) and the light grey is a 420 mile range (my guess at the Max Pack range). When I saw it on a map like this I'm thinking the $10,000 for the max pack is not going to make a big enough difference often enough to justify the cost and wait time. Of course the ranges will be less in the winter and I'll have to think about that some more before I really commit. But graphing it out like this may help other like me come to a more informed decision.

As a fellow Minnesotan I appreciate your map. I am not trying to be critical, but a couple flaws I see are 1. It is only recommended to use 80% of your range which lowers it to about 250 miles and 2. Winter will lower it another 20% or so which will only be roughly 200 miles. We live in Rural MN so a round trip to Minneapolis or Sioux Falls would be out of the question in the winter without charging. I see you live in Plymouth so I completely agree you could get by with the large pack and plan on charging when going further. We live about a hundred miles from the closest Costco, so we are holding out for the max pack. I really did appreciate your map and showed it to my wife, as she is as excited about the Rivian as I am. She said nope, max pack it is!!

 

[Budman]

As a fellow Minnesotan I appreciate your map. I am not trying to be critical, but a couple flaws I see are 1. It is only recommended to use 80% of your range which lowers it to about 250 miles and 2. Winter will lower it another 20% or so which will only be roughly 200 miles. We live in Rural MN so a round trip to Minneapolis or Sioux Falls would be out of the question in the winter without charging. I see you live in Plymouth so I completely agree you could get by with the large pack and plan on charging when going further. We live about a hundred miles from the closest Costco, so we are holding out for the max pack. I really did appreciate your map and showed it to my wife, as she is as excited about the Rivian as I am. She said nope, max pack it is!!

I just wanted to point out this tool for people to help them see the range impact on a map.I Put in your own numbers and assumption to suit your use case.

For the occasional long trip, charging to 100% may be ok. I have not seen any published info, but Rivian may have put in that safety buffer for us so we don’t need to adhere to the 80% rule so strictly. Ford did this with the Mach e. Routinely charging to 100% is ok with the Mach e because of the built in buffer.

 

[Doug]

I just wanted to point out this tool for people to help them see the range impact on a map.I Put in your own numbers and assumption to suit your use case.

For the occasional long trip, charging to 100% may be ok. I have not seen any published info, but Rivian may have put in that safety buffer for us so we don’t need to adhere to the 80% rule so strictly. Ford did this with the Mach e. Routinely charging to 100% is ok with the Mach e because of the built in buffer.

I would be curious about that, if the buffer is built in. I think we would still wait for the max pack but for others on the fence that may make a difference for them. Also, I did appreciate the map. I may use that, as my wife has range anxiety.

 

[cmiller]

I will probably take the hit and get the regular pack since I never keep cars that long and will get something new I like as longer packs become standard. This is not my forever truck and If I get one and end up loving it I can always trade it in for a new rivian with a longer pack 3-5 years down the road

 

[_evtrk]

This is simply not true. For the first few YEARS there was not even a "Large Pack" - all R1T specs were for a 400+ mile range, aka the "Max Pack". Even after they introduced a shorter range Large Pack option, Rivian stated many times for a long period (months, possibly even a year +) that the first trucks delivered would be the longest range and most equipped trim models.

There were always 2 different pack sizes, the one that was added later was the smallest pack, which still isn't available as an order option. If you attended, or have followed anything from 2018 R.J. has always said that "it has a 400 mile range with the largest battery" meaning that at least 2 different sized packs were planned, they, like all manufacturers always give the highest specs available. in some of the interviews at the auto show he even talked about the 2 packs.

as far what was suppose to be available first, it was both, at highest trim. it was said a few times throughout 2018 and part of 2019 that both would be out first, then after the smallest was planned, they revised it to both followed by the smallest pack later on.

As for what some are saying about issues with 400 miles. They've had a few test trucks that are 400 mile trucks so i'm pretty sure that getting the range isn't a problem, i believe and i would bet that if more than 20% had wanted the largest pack that would be out first or at the same time as the large pack. remember that not all reservations are sales, so take 14k maybe 70% will become sales so maybe just over 10K, that may not be worth it, especially when they are trying ramp trucks, suv's and delivery vehicles, for every 3 of the largest packs they can make 4 of the large. the biggest constraints they have currently are probably batteries. make sense to do what they are doing.

 

[sierraskier]

There were always 2 different pack sizes, the one that was added later was the smallest pack, which still isn't available as an order option. If you attended, or have followed anything from 2018 R.J. has always said that "it has a 400 mile range with the largest battery" meaning that at least 2 different sized packs were planned, they, like all manufacturers always give the highest specs available. in some of the interviews at the auto show he even talked about the 2 packs.

as far what was suppose to be available first, it was both, at highest trim. it was said a few times throughout 2018 and part of 2019 that both would be out first, then after the smallest was planned, they revised it to both followed by the smallest pack later on.

As for what some are saying about issues with 400 miles. They've had a few test trucks that are 400 mile trucks so i'm pretty sure that getting the range isn't a problem, i believe and i would bet that if more than 20% had wanted the largest pack that would be out first or at the same time as the large pack. remember that not all reservations are sales, so take 14k maybe 70% will become sales so maybe just over 10K, that may not be worth it, especially when they are trying ramp trucks, suv's and delivery vehicles, for every 3 of the largest packs they can make 4 of the large. the biggest constraints they have currently are probably batteries. make sense to do what they are doing.

I'm a March 2019 reservation holder so I've been 'loosely following' since 2018 but I haven't been to any shows and I haven't watched every interview that RJ gave.... but quite frankly I shouldn't have to in order to parse out small clues that the company can later use to back away from what was the company's PRIMARY MESSAGE AND MARKETING CLAIM around the R1T FOR YEARS. It is indisputable that Rivian's primary range claim and marketing message for the R1T was 400+mi for multiple years: it was all over the website, it was in any formal Rivian R1T release containing specs, in any Rivian social content, and in most (if not all) 3rd party articles/blogs/social content around the R1T. It has been the primary range spec touted for the vast majority of time since they started communicating any specs/details around the R1T. That is an indisputable fact.

We can argue all day about what "makes the most sense" but that is completely subjective to the eye of the beholder and therefore a complete waste of time. Likewise so is pontificating about the cause for delay - supply chain, pandemic, battery technology limitations, etc.

Bottom line is these are very well known challenges to EV manufacturers, that the company knew existed when they created the concept and began touting the range spec for the vehicle years ago. Yes the pandemic was a wild card, but if you are going to change your PRIMARY OFFERING and a key differentiator, as a customer I expect to hear some details around why you can't live up to your original claim - i.e., battery cell technology not ready, long term reliability, can't get source materials, etc...not some BS excuse that it's for the greater good of the climate. Even if I was going to try to use that, I would at least throw out some math around how many more cars you're removing from the road and CO2 reduction. Right now I just feel like not only have they missed multiple commitments, but there really is a piss-poor effort around communication...which unfortunately is multiple misses, not just one.

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