Alex on Autos' Follow-Up After Selling His R1T

[Goose]

The amount of elitism in this forum is astounding. If I get an R1T (I'm still not convinced it's the right vehicle for me since I will need it to tow a 3000lb boat/trailer 150 miles) I will be trading my 2012 4Runner for it and financing the rest. My wife and I both do very well but it would be impossible to afford a vehicle without financing in this current market. We live in a world where normal trucks can run up over $90K, by the reasoning in this thread I should only buy a base F-150 XLT and leave the "luxury" to you elites.

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[Yellow Buddy]

If you live off grid, why in the hell would you buy or own an electric car?

If your choice is your wife using her hair dryer in the morning because you are living off grid or keeping a trickle charge on a great car, looks like you need the hair dryer.

Let’s not bucket the two as they’re not necessarily tied together. “Off Grid” often gives a sense of an outhouse or having to deal with no power for a signficant portion of the day to some folks.

The key is system sizing, and my system is fully capable of keeping the vampire drain of my Model X, Model S, R1T and…well the Lightning barely has any vampire drain, but it keeps them charged..while my wife uses her hair dryer.

People who come over often have no idea the household is 100% electric nor that it’s 100% self powered.

Why pay for gasoline, propane, diesel, heating oil, or natural gas when I make my own electricity? The question I have is why wouldn’t someone who lives off grid own an EV?

 

[Sooner Rivian Fan]

OK, I just spend 2 weeks in the woods (2 different occasions for 2 different hunting seasons). I ran my RV, not a small one, but a 33 foot bumper pull, with the R1T, and drove sometimes to my various hunting spots. I watched my battery carefully and I am going to officially call the vampire drain CRAP. I used a few miles per day running the various battery heater, sentry cameras, driving, but that's it. When I hooked it up to the RV it would use maybe 20 miles in a day for really cold weather.
Complain about things that are legit, but this one is done.

Also, charging on the road in the woods of my backwater state really does suck and will keep us in the dino juice days for many years to come. If you need to sell your R1T then do it. There are many reasons beyond troubles with the vehicle itself. Being able to net $40k plus is one of them to those who just don't care.

 

[Franksmartin]

Honest review of the highs and lows, including clearly identifying Rivian’s number one fatal flaw: The vampire power drain. (Refer to his earlier videos, it’s really bad)

Wasting power like that is against both the outdoors adventure theme and the carbon reduction theme which is driving the whole EV transition. It’s impractical when parked at a trail head or airport for a week or two. Not to mention the cost of wasted energy.

As he mentions, it will never be fixable because of the big processor architecture, a product of the software culture hubris driving design rather rather than a systems engineering approach. This problem also spills over into features like gear guard, something that consumes huge amounts of energy to do little more than a couple of GoPro cameras that can record hours of video using only tiny batteries.

I really want to like the R1, and there is a lot to like. But I cannot get past this intractable energy waste issue, so I’m probably going to walk as well.

I think it’s bordering absurd to assume this won’t be addressed by software updates in the future.

 

[Franksmartin]

I'm not going to argue with the money aspect of his video. He is spot on that for the average person this truck isn't a wise purchase. It's great, I love mine and as I trade my vehicles in every 3 years right now my plan is to trade this in for the exact same truck when the time comes. With that said all vehicles are a poor investment and I wouldn't think this truck was worth it if I had to stretch to buy it.

I think that you shouldn't put yourself into a tight spot to have something that is unnecessarily equipped. There is no real specific use case for something like a Rivian. You don't need it for towing, BEVs can't tow that far so if you're towing a lot there are better vehicles to buy. No one needs a 3.0 second 0-60 time although I love having a vehicle with one.

Where the Rivian excels for me personally is in coolness. It is an incredibly cool and fun to drive truck. Unfortunately coolness puts the R1 into the "fun" or "toy" category by my personal opinion and if you don't have 90K+ to spend on a toy your money is better spent elsewhere. To be more fair you can get a truck that is adequate for truck things for like 40K. SO if you have the money to spend 50+ on a toy and 40 on a new car you could do both with one Rivian.

The S is a direct replacement for all of those 3-row family SUVs -Highlander, Pilot, Explorer, etc. The T is a bit more of a niche.

 

[Franksmartin]

If you live off grid, why in the hell would you buy or own an electric car?

I love how he talks about his employees and his company buying a car, yada yada yada... Looks like the guy made 15 to 20 grand reselling it. Even considering the outrageous insurance and interest he had to pay.

I'm sorry folks, if you need to finance this truck, maybe it's not for you. You might be stretching a little bit.

If your choice is your wife using her hair dryer in the morning because you are living off grid or keeping a trickle charge on a great car, looks like you need the hair dryer.

Clickbait garbage. Go hang out with the dinosaurs.

That makes no sense, the vast majority of new cars are financed.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

The S is a direct replacement for all of those 3-row family SUVs -Highlander, Pilot, Explorer, etc. The T is a bit more of a niche.

At 2x the cost. If the car is going to put you in a bad spot financially you can accomplish the same thing much cheaper, except for the coolness

 

[srnyoung]

What a ridiculous statement. There are plenty of people living off grid who have electric cars and charge them with off grid energy systems.

Totally agree - it's interesting to me that "off-grid" still seems to mean cooking on a campfire and kerosene for light. That ain't it any longer. I'd feel better about a modern solar house WITH A BATTERY and an electric car than if I had a gas car and lived in say Florida where the power and gas lines get long sometimes when the hurricanes hit.

The point being made is the wasteful vampire drain of the Rivian, which makes it an unnecessary energy burden for anyone, whether on or off grid.

Rivian, in its current from, is not a good choice for energy efficiency or the environment.

I wonder how many people who are stressing about vampire drain also ONLY drive below 65 mph and ALWAYS take their RTT and cross bars off. Both of the latter stand to cost more electricity in the long run. Anecdotal evidence from on here suggests the RTT costs about 8-10% in efficiency. And speeding up from 65-80 mph can cost as much as 20%.

At any rate, the R1T is still among the most efficient vehicles of its size available. It gets:
- 2x the efficiency of the nearest gas/hybrid truck (Ford Maverick) which is substantially smaller
- same efficiency as the Ford equivalent

Vampire drain as some of the outliers are experiencing still needs to be better. But saying these trucks are anything other than a MASSIVE boost for energy efficiency for those of us who still use trucks...I don't get it?

 

[Franksmartin]

It's not arrogance, it's sound advice. The Rivian is unnecessary for anyone. You can't say that you couldn't get another truck that would work for almost anyone MUCH cheaper. I think that puts one into a luxury category. Personally I don't think it's necessarily bad to finance a toy, but it is a stupid idea to put yourself in a bad spot for an item that you don't need. I think that's all this guy was trying to say, if you can't afford a car and you know you can't afford it maybe it's not a good idea to buy it.

Not so sure about that. I could buy a new Honda Pilot and pay for gas or buy the R1S for 20k more and save on fuel and probably retain more resale value.

At 2x the cost. If the car is going to put you in a bad spot financially you can accomplish the same thing much cheaper, except for the coolness

Comparing a new Highlander, and factoring in that the S is the most efficient SUV on the market from a “fuel” cost point of view, if you got early pricing, federal and state rebates, and tend to hold vehicles for a long time it becomes only marginally more expensive. Then factor in resales value and I bet it’s even closer.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Not so sure about that. I could buy a new Honda Pilot and pay for gas or buy the R1S for 20k more and save on fuel and probably retain more resale value.

Comparing a new Highlander, and factoring in that the S is the most efficient SUV on the market from a “fuel” cost point of view, if you got early pricing, federal and state rebates, and tend to hold vehicles for a long time it becomes only marginally more expensive. Then factor in resales value and I bet it’s even closer.

According to the EPA numbers over the life of the Rivian it will cost about 7k dollars less to fuel than the average gas car. That’s over the lifetime and you can buy a well equipped Highlander for 45k. Post price increase R1S starts a minimum 30k over that well equipped highlander. If we are going to compare the base R1 then a Highlander starts at 36k according to their website I’m looking at right now.

You aren’t going to save the extra money on fuel compared to the Highlander and we have no clue how the durability of the R1 series will be. Are you going to be dumping a ton of money into it at 8 years? The Toyota won’t. Those run forever. Don’t fool yourself into saying a Rivian is a financially good move over a cheaper car, it’s not.

Im a big fan of my R1 but it’s more money than what’s necessary for anyone to spend on a vehicle. If you’re in a position where you can spend that extra to indulge a want that’s great, but don’t pretend this is the economy decision and don’t put yourself in a bad position to indulge a want.

 

[Franksmartin]

According to the EPA numbers over the life of the Rivian it will cost about 7k dollars less to fuel than the average gas car. That’s over the lifetime and you can buy a well equipped Highlander for 45k. Post price increase R1S starts a minimum 30k over that well equipped highlander. If we are going to compare the base R1 then a Highlander starts at 36k according to their website I’m looking at right now.

You aren’t going to save the extra money on fuel compared to the Highlander and we have no clue how the durability of the R1 series will be. Are you going to be dumping a ton of money into it at 8 years? The Toyota won’t. Those run forever. Don’t fool yourself into saying a Rivian is a financially good move over a cheaper car, it’s not.

Im a big fan of my R1 but it’s more money than what’s necessary for anyone to spend on a vehicle. If you’re in a position where you can spend that extra to indulge a want that’s great, but don’t pretend this is the economy decision and don’t put yourself in a bad position to indulge a want.

It’s more but depending on your situation not THAT much more. In our case we got early pricing, our city has free chargers very close to our house, we get $15k in federal and state rebates/credits, and we have solar panels about to be installed. It’s really not much more for us when you consider all of that. But yes the math changes with the new pricing and other factors.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

It’s more but depending on your situation not THAT much more. In our case we got early pricing, our city has free chargers very close to our house, we get $15k in federal and state rebates/credits, and we have solar panels about to be installed. It’s really not much more for us when you consider all of that. But yes the math changes with the new pricing and other factors.

That’s fair. I’m not saying people shouldn’t buy it, I think they are great and anyone who can afford it should get one. My whole point is just that if you’re in a place where buying something like a Rivian is going to hurt your financial situation then it might be better to buy something more affordable.

If you’re getting solar panels installed, chances are you aren’t in that super tight financial situation and with the free charging it probably does make sense for you.

 

[waitinginvain]

Honest review of the highs and lows, including clearly identifying Rivian’s number one fatal flaw: The vampire power drain. (Refer to his earlier videos, it’s really bad)

Wasting power like that is against both the outdoors adventure theme and the carbon reduction theme which is driving the whole EV transition. It’s impractical when parked at a trail head or airport for a week or two. Not to mention the cost of wasted energy.

As he mentions, it will never be fixable because of the big processor architecture, a product of the software culture hubris driving design rather rather than a systems engineering approach. This problem also spills over into features like gear guard, something that consumes huge amounts of energy to do little more than a couple of GoPro cameras that can record hours of video using only tiny batteries.

I really want to like the R1, and there is a lot to like. But I cannot get past this intractable energy waste issue, so I’m probably going to walk as well.

ugh, I'll take the bait. This is simply false.
Apple Silicon in particular proves just how untrue this is in terms of what's possible and already to market. And it's going to keep improving.

RIVIAN clearly has a problem hereof line of code -- "while(true)" -- could rapidly drain any device's battery. That would be a bug and not evidence of what technology is capable of achieving

Tesla is only so good because they've had a long time to polish their software and hardware at this point. It used to drain much worse and the hardware used to be less efficient as well. RIVIAN will get there too if they live long enough.

dont cast judgement on an entire ecosystem of technology based on one disappointing implementation of it

 

[Longreach]

ugh, I'll take the bait. This is simply false.
Apple Silicon in particular proves just how untrue this is in terms of what's possible and already to market. And it's going to keep improving.

RIVIAN clearly has a problem hereof line of code -- "while(true)" -- could rapidly drain any device's battery. That would be a bug and not evidence of what technology is capable of achieving

Tesla is only so good because they've had a long time to polish their software and hardware at this point. It used to drain much worse and the hardware used to be less efficient as well. RIVIAN will get there too if they live long enough.

dont cast judgement on an entire ecosystem of technology based on one disappointing implementation of it

Fair enough…
There are examples of substantial processing power in low energy consumption devices, like cell phones. Rivian chose not to take that path, at least not now.

Interesting that Qualcomm has announced entry into the automotive market with their low power processor architectures. That approach could be a step to solving the problem. Regardless, I still believe it makes sense to off load simple continuous functions, like keyless entry and gear guard, to small low power devices which minimise energy consumption. The legacy manufacturers got that part right.

 

[SASSquatch]

I'm late to the party but thank you to @ads75 for posting Alex's excellent and REAL review. It strikes me that since he didn't cut-the-line, he's not motivated to sound like a marketing video like some purported '"reviewers." For me personally, the Phantom Drain issue is a big deal and is something I will have to watch closely and hope Rivian makes some strides.

Fascinating that he brought us into the financial decisions he was weighing, especially with his YouTube business. Alex is clearly honest and has a very bright line between his personal use of these vehicles and the use for the purposes of the company. Makes you wonder if other "outlets" do the same.

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