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Adapt to other super chargers?

ajdelange

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The "slow" (Level 2, home) chargers are a part of road trips as the first leg is usually run on a charge acquired at home. But at home you have the whole night before to pick up that charge and on the road you want to get going again ASAP. That's where the Level 3 chargers come in.
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Fenwayfan77

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You guys are correct I was talking about super chargers. Truth be told, I’m ignorant to all of this charging network but what I am sure of is these slower chargers that appear to take overnight or at least several hours are of no use to me on a road trip. I’m not complaining as I’m not buying this truck to really take on road trips. Honestly I’m not sure why I’m buying it other than it’s a cool toy.
Eventually there will be an abundance of super chargers and at that point it will be fun to take on road trips, until then I’ll take one of our ICE vehicles.
Thanks for all the replies.
There are many fast chargers out there, similar to Tesla's "Superchargers". Rivian will be compatible with the CCS Network (Combined Charging System). Additionally, Rivian will be launching their Rivian Adventure Network (RAN). After the fast chargers, come the Level 2 chargers that you can use when you are in a pinch. Plenty out there. You can also connect to the Tesla Destination Chargers (different from Superchargers) via an adapter on the J1772 connectors. You don't need to wait for anything. You'll be comfortable driving anywhere except for the most remote locations, which hopefully the RAN will address.
 

Matsayz

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Checkout www.plugshare.com it will show you all the chargers near/around you and what type. All this can be filtered by your vehicle or if you just want to only use one type of connection for charging.

Yes, Tesla has a ton of SuperChargers (SC) of varying charge rates (72/150/250kW) but the network isn't enough for all the Tesla's during the holidays. Look at 2019 holiday season (Thanksgiving/Xmas/New Years) in California... And yes I do know that the majority of the time SC's sit un-used but during those busy times of day they are generally full up. I don't think we'll see Tesla "open" those SC's to any other company for at least 4-5yrs and by then hopefully all these 3rd party companies (ChargePoint/EVgo/Electrify America/etc) will have placed a ton of charging stations around the country/World.

For an idea of Tesla's SC's checkout www.supercharger.info

I really do hope CCS starts showing up EVERYWHERE even though we have two Tesla's at my house ('19 Model 3 & '20 Model Y). We're really hoping to pick up an R1T around 2025 when prices have dropped and range is up (I know it's just fine right now) so we can tow our 30ft Airstream around the country. The industry really needs to figure out how to make charging as simple as it is with Tesla's, the standard is there I believe for CCS to just plug in but it hasn't happened yet.
 

azbill

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The industry really needs to figure out how to make charging as simple as it is with Tesla's, the standard is there I believe for CCS to just plug in but it hasn't happened yet.
EA has announced Plug and Charge coming next year for Porsche Taycan, Mach E and Lucid Air:

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/123

Rivian needs to get on board and support ISO 15118 standard.
 

ajdelange

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Is there some reason to think they don't? Or that, at least, the stubs aren't there?
 

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azbill

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Is there some reason to think they don't? Or that, at least, the stubs aren't there?
Simply pointing out that they were not mentioned in the EA article. Mach E and Lucid Air are mentioned and they are not in production yet. It would be nice to know two things:

1) Has Rivian given EA a vehicle for testing? (Other manufacturers have done this, to insure compatibility with all charger vendors)
2) Are they actively working on having the Plug and Charge working on day one of deliveries. (Just like Lucid and Ford)
 

P.S.Mangelsdorf

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this seems like it would be not that complicated to design.
Work being completed over on the Open Inverter forum has demonstrated its not quite so simple.

There are three primary DC fast charge types in the US:
Tesla Supercharger
CCS (combined charging system) - adds DC connections below the J1772 plug
CHADEMO

Rivian's will charge from CCS, which is the same standard every manufacturer except Tesla will be supporting.

CHADEMO was being supported by Nissan, but they have recently begun to switch to CCS with their newest models.


All three use different communication methods.

Tesla's system requires the car to communicate to the station what it's VIN is, which as of right now requires it to be a Tesla, for subsequent billing.

The CHADEMO standard has been in use by aftermarket manufacturers (for/in EV conversions) for several years.

The CCS standard is just now beginning to be available for EV conversions. It uses a more complex communication protocol, most of which goes over my head.


Looking forward, most new US stations will use CCS. There will end up being two networks, CCS and Tesla. My best guess is that there won't be adaptation to use Tesla's network until either
a) regulation requires it (see: Europe)
b) there is some sort of acquisition (of Tesla or by Tesla)
 

ajdelange

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1) Has Rivian given EA a vehicle for testing? (Other manufacturers have done this, to insure compatibility with all charger vendors)
Don't know but don't think so as there aren't that many pre production vehicles out yet (AFAIK).
EA is a member of CharIn as is Rivian so at least they are on the same page. This does not mean they will play together first time they are connected but there is a pretty good chance they will. That's what standards are for.

2) Are they actively working on having the Plug and Charge working on day one of deliveries. (Just like Lucid and Ford)
Again, I don't know but I am guessing that the stubs are probably there so that compatibility is an OTA update or two away.
 

ajdelange

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Work being completed over on the Open Inverter forum has demonstrated its not quite so simple.

There are three primary DC fast charge types in the US:
As engineers like to say "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."

DC fast chargers all work the same way:
1)You plug into your car. The charger detects that a car is there.
2)The charger identifies the car as one that it can and is willing to charge and turns on the juice
3)The car sends commands to the charger to increase or decrease its output voltage so as to maintain the current it takes at the level it wants

The chargers operate within a voltage current envelope. This means it can deliver any voltage between Vmin and Vmax at any current between Imin and Imax subject to some power limitation, The car's battery has a characteristin"load line" that relates the current it draws to the voltage applied to it. If the car's load line fits within the charger's envelope then charging can take place. Obviously a car whose load line lies entirely above 500 V cannot charge from a charger with Vmax less than 500V. The challenge in charging a car designed for the Tesla SC system from CCS or CHAdeMO does not lie in this area. It is rather in the setup of the communications implied in each of the three steps. There may be a bunch of nettlesome bookeeping details to deal with but this is done all the time. Think Ethernet to RS232 interfaces for example.

To charge a Tesla from CHAdeMO you buy or build a CHAdeMO car to charger interface and a car to SC interface, put them in a container with CHAdeMO and Tesla power connecters and add some circuitry that translates CHAdeMO language to Tesla language. This may involve hardware and software. If you take your Telsa CHAdeMO adapter and plug a CHAdeMO charger into it and look at the display on the charger you will see a message that says "CHAdeMO vehicle detected". The charger thinks there is a CHAdeMO car connected when in fact it is only the interface board that could be used in a CHAdeMO BEV that has been connected. All that is required for the CHAdeMO vehicle to be detected is the "presence" signal. This might, using J1772 as an example, be the presence of a resistor of a certain size between the presence pin and signal ground. When the Tesla side of the interface detects that a Tesla is present, using whatever format Tesla uses, the adaptor then puts this resistor across the proper pins on the CHAdeMO side. Etc.

So it is definitely doable and fairly easily too but people on both sides of the interface have to want to do it and Tesla does not want to allow Rivians to charge from Superchargers. There is nothing an interfacing adapter can send to a Tesla SC to induce that SC to send power to the Rivian. But, for perspective, let us take note of the recent news story in which vehicles with CCS ports could go to CCS equipped chargers in Europe and get a charge. This illustrates the feasibility of charging a CCS BEV from an SC if the SC software is such that it will authorize the charge.

What all this means is that wile universal charging may be miles and miles away in terms of corporate policy it is not that far off at all in terms of technology.
 

DucRider

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Simply pointing out that they were not mentioned in the EA article. Mach E and Lucid Air are mentioned and they are not in production yet. It would be nice to know two things:

1) Has Rivian given EA a vehicle for testing? (Other manufacturers have done this, to insure compatibility with all charger vendors)
2) Are they actively working on having the Plug and Charge working on day one of deliveries. (Just like Lucid and Ford)
The capability and standards have been in place for quite some time, but the hang-up has been in implementation. As it stands now, users will need to register with every possible network provider individually to activate plug and charge. EA will have one implementation, Chargepoint another, plus EVgo, Blink, Greenlots, etc. Getting a central registration and billing system is the goal so that an EV owner would be able to pull into almost any charging station without having to worry about if they registered with that company, the card they used to set up billing hasn't changed/expired, etc.

As to the testing, Rivian would definitely want it done with a full production spec vehicle and I'm not sure that really exists yet. They are doing pre-production vehicles for validation and testing. No doubt they will find at least some changes that need to be made.
 

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azbill

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The capability and standards have been in place for quite some time, but the hang-up has been in implementation. As it stands now, users will need to register with every possible network provider individually to activate plug and charge. EA will have one implementation, Chargepoint another, plus EVgo, Blink, Greenlots, etc. Getting a central registration and billing system is the goal so that an EV owner would be able to pull into almost any charging station without having to worry about if they registered with that company, the card they used to set up billing hasn't changed/expired, etc.

As to the testing, Rivian would definitely want it done with a full production spec vehicle and I'm not sure that really exists yet. They are doing pre-production vehicles for validation and testing. No doubt they will find at least some changes that need to be made.
EA has been provided other pre-production vehicles to test with, In fact in several online articles, EA removed these vehicles before allowing the press into the lab where they are tested. But production vehicles are in the lab and shown as under testing. For me, it is most important the testing is done as early as possible, even if that means a prototype. Early on with EA, it was found that the Chevy Spark would not charge on any of their stations. It took EA and GM several months to provide a fix. I also know an owner of a Niro who cannot charge on EVGO or Charge Point, but those work fine on EA stations. These are software communications issues and can be worked out without a full production ready vehicle.
 

DucRider

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EA has been provided other pre-production vehicles to test with, In fact in several online articles, EA removed these vehicles before allowing the press into the lab where they are tested. But production vehicles are in the lab and shown as under testing. For me, it is most important the testing is done as early as possible, even if that means a prototype. Early on with EA, it was found that the Chevy Spark would not charge on any of their stations. It took EA and GM several months to provide a fix. I also know an owner of a Niro who cannot charge on EVGO or Charge Point, but those work fine on EA stations. These are software communications issues and can be worked out without a full production ready vehicle.
There is nothing definitive that Rivian is not working with EA to ensure compatibility, only that neither side has mentioned the other.
I can think of many reasons why there would be silence when they are working together to ensure compatibility and/or reach a reduced/free charging agreement. It is absolutely critical to Rivians success that they can take full advantage of the EA charging network. I seriously doubt that this has been overlooked at Rivian.
 

ajdelange

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EA has been provided other pre-production vehicles to test with, ... For me, it is most important the testing is done as early as possible, even if that means a prototype.
Does Rivian's ability to sell trucks depend on compatibility with the EA network? Answer that question and I think you will have answered your question as to whether Rivian has been tested with the EA system.
 

azbill

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There is nothing definitive that Rivian is not working with EA to ensure compatibility, only that neither side has mentioned the other.
I can think of many reasons why there would be silence when they are working together to ensure compatibility and/or reach a reduced/free charging agreement. It is absolutely critical to Rivians success that they can take full advantage of the EA charging network. I seriously doubt that this has been overlooked at Rivian.
Some other companies have overlooked this, here is a recent article about Volvo:


The XC40 Recharge is capable of recharging at a peak rate of 150 kW while charging on a high-powered DC fast charger and Volvo claims a 0% to 80% recharge time of 40 minutes. We attempted to test out the charging at an Electrify America charging station but were unsuccessful, as the charger and the vehicle had a communication issue. So we reached out to Electrify America and Volvo for comment and received the following:


Russell Datz Volvo's National Media Relations Manager: "I spoke to a few people and can confirm there is a recognized software compatibility issue with a small number of chargers on the EA network. We are scheduled to have a fix early in the year, ahead of any significant customer deliveries."

Mike Moran, Communications Manager for Electrify America: “Electrify America has not had access to the Volvo XC40 Recharge for testing in our Center of Technology Lab. We are currently engaging with Volvo to conduct a test of the vehicle and will comment after the testing and evaluation are complete.”
 

ajdelange

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Let's keep in mind that the problem, if there is one, isn't going to be that the Rivian requires 925 volts whereas the a CharIn HPC350 compatible terminal can only do 920. It's going to be some problem with the authentication/verification/authorization software/fimware. While it is true that the acid test is a Rivian production vehicle charging from a EA terminal, either in the field or in Reston, it is possible to test this part of the functionality with much less of a production than that. Many manufacturers of new products introduce them to the marketplace with an "EVM" (Evaluation Module) of some sort. This is ususlly a PC board with a USB (or in my day, RS232) connector which contains all the interfaces to, in this case, the vehicle BMS and or other computers and a copy of the software/firmware installed in the chargers. IOW it contains all the communication.autorization guts of an EA terminal. The connected PC simulates the EA network or, perhaps, even connects to it. Plugging the car's communications line into the EVM and having successfully negotiate to the point of issuing the commands to start charging successfully demonstrates the "tricky" part of the interface.

I am not saying EA has an EVM because I have no idea whether they do or not. Seems a sensible thing to do though.
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