A fight over the right to repair cars turns ugly [Wired]

[lostpacket]

Interesting article from Wired/Ars:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/a-fight-over-the-right-to-repair-cars-turns-ugly/

What do you think?

Personally I want to figure out if Android Debug Bridge (ADB) can be enabled on the infotainment system. Then we could potentially install 3rd party apps like Waze or ABRP. At least that's what I'd be hoping to do while I bricked my truck.

Tesla has somewhat of an API for some telemetry right?

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[thehodge]

Here's a deeper dive for details from Cory Doctorow: It all starts with Right to Repair.​

 

[lostpacket]

Here's a deeper dive for details from Cory Doctorow: It all starts withRight to Repair.​

Fantastic article, thank you for sharing! The interop issue is not something talked about enough. I hadn't considered it as a tool for anti-trust.

One thing he only touches on in the article that I think is also important, is how to get some of those ideas into practice. Why is Massachusetts the center of the fight? Because the independent auto repair shops banded together and thus gained political power.

 

[Zoidz]

Thanks for posting, very interesting. I've got some experience with this recently. My daughter's 2014 X3 went into "limp mode". Long story shortened, the dealer told her the turbo had seized (135k miles), and repair would be $4400. I have done alot of work on my cars over many years, regularly doing oil changes, brake jobs, exhaust, struts, and even a couple of engine top end rebuilds. So I decided to take a look at it this weekend to confirm what the dealer said. Yeah, the turbo is seized.

I got the Ethernet to OBD cable for BMW F series, and got a bootleg copy of BMW ISTA-D Diagnostics software, widely available on BMW forums. In the setup there is a configuration area for dealer info and authentication. I intentionally did not have an Internet connection, but once you connect to a vehicle and ISTA-D retrieves the VIN, it tries to go online to retrieve vehicle service history, etc. See the first image.

This article touches on that issue - under "right to repair" who has the data, and who has access to it? BMW has somewhat addressed this, but as a fairly expensive paywall. If I own the car, and my car generated the data, should I have to pay/subscribe to get to that data? As a businessperson, I certainly understand that there are real costs to hosting and storing data, and developing tools such as ISTA-D, etc. But look at the second image below - $30 for 24 hour access (which frequently is not enough time for a self-repair), $250 a month?

So bootlegging of BMW ISTA-D, ISTA-P, etc. is rampant, without the online data, but it's still useful for diagnosing a problem. It's quite sophisticated - it reads the fault codes, and automatically builds a Service Plan for the service tech to follow, with many of the diagnostics being executed by ISTA-D, and telling the tech what to do based on the results.

The other issue at hand, I think, is liability. People without practical knowledge of safely servicing cars could hurt themselves or the car by using ISTA-D and ISTA-P......

 

[crashmtb]

Thanks for posting, very interesting. I've got some experience with this recently. My daughter's 2014 X3 went into "limp mode". Long story shortened, the dealer told her the turbo had seized (135k miles), and repair would be $4400. I have done alot of work on my cars over many years, regularly doing oil changes, brake jobs, exhaust, struts, and even a couple of engine top end rebuilds. So I decided to take a look at it this weekend to confirm what the dealer said. Yeah, the turbo is seized.

I got the Ethernet to OBD cable for BMW F series, and got a bootleg copy of BMW ISTA-D Diagnostics software, widely available on BMW forums. In the setup there is a configuration area for dealer info and authentication. I intentionally did not have an Internet connection, but once you connect to a vehicle and ISTA-D retrieves the VIN, it tries to go online to retrieve vehicle service history, etc. See the first image.

This article touches on that issue - under "right to repair" who has the data, and who has access to it? BMW has somewhat addressed this, but as a fairly expensive paywall. If I own the car, and my car generated the data, should I have to pay/subscribe to get to that data? As a businessperson, I certainly understand that there are real costs to hosting and storing data, and developing tools such as ISTA-D, etc. But look at the second image below - $30 for 24 hour access (which frequently is not enough time for a self-repair), $250 a month?

So bootlegging of BMW ISTA-D, ISTA-P, etc. is rampant, without the online data, but it's still useful for diagnosing a problem. It's quite sophisticated - it reads the fault codes, and automatically builds a Service Plan for the service tech to follow, with many of the diagnostics being executed by ISTA-D, and telling the tech what to do based on the results.

The other issue at hand, I think, is liability. People without practical knowledge of safely servicing cars could hurt themselves or the car by using ISTA-D and ISTA-P......

$250 for a month is a bargain when considering what dealership hourly rates are like these days.

I subscribe to JLR TopiX for my Land Rover as the printed manual I have is missing some things. They have an option to purchase a single model subscription which is much, much less expensive than the other options. Still not cheap.

Most other automakers only offer “all or nothing” plans.

it is my understanding that as part of the OBD laws, manufacturers are compelled to provide repair information. They can charge whatever they want AFAIK.

It will be interesting to see what Rivian charges for technical service information. I’ll definitely buy myself a week or a month for curiosity's sake.

here’s the solution to turbo problems:

https://www.pureturbos.com/product/bmw-n20-stg2/

 

[IPTV65]

Thanks for posting, very interesting. I've got some experience with this recently. My daughter's 2014 X3 went into "limp mode". Long story shortened, the dealer told her the turbo had seized (135k miles), and repair would be $4400. I have done alot of work on my cars over many years, regularly doing oil changes, brake jobs, exhaust, struts, and even a couple of engine top end rebuilds. So I decided to take a look at it this weekend to confirm what the dealer said. Yeah, the turbo is seized.

I got the Ethernet to OBD cable for BMW F series, and got a bootleg copy of BMW ISTA-D Diagnostics software, widely available on BMW forums. In the setup there is a configuration area for dealer info and authentication. I intentionally did not have an Internet connection, but once you connect to a vehicle and ISTA-D retrieves the VIN, it tries to go online to retrieve vehicle service history, etc. See the first image.

This article touches on that issue - under "right to repair" who has the data, and who has access to it? BMW has somewhat addressed this, but as a fairly expensive paywall. If I own the car, and my car generated the data, should I have to pay/subscribe to get to that data? As a businessperson, I certainly understand that there are real costs to hosting and storing data, and developing tools such as ISTA-D, etc. But look at the second image below - $30 for 24 hour access (which frequently is not enough time for a self-repair), $250 a month?

So bootlegging of BMW ISTA-D, ISTA-P, etc. is rampant, without the online data, but it's still useful for diagnosing a problem. It's quite sophisticated - it reads the fault codes, and automatically builds a Service Plan for the service tech to follow, with many of the diagnostics being executed by ISTA-D, and telling the tech what to do based on the results.

The other issue at hand, I think, is liability. People without practical knowledge of safely servicing cars could hurt themselves or the car by using ISTA-D and ISTA-P......

The failure is to publish all the protocol specs so individuals or 3rd parties can make their own SW. With regards to the data storage and such the failure is ANY option to store it personally. If they offer a full service option for a fee that is great but that can’t be the only option as it’s my car so therefore my personal data( just my option of course). RTR should assure that it’s not the only an option and not a locked in extortion scheme. It should be considered PII in my opinion and regulated as such.

 

[Zoidz]

$250 for a month is a bargain when considering what dealership hourly rates are like these days.

I subscribe to JLR TopiX for my Land Rover as the printed manual I have is missing some things. They have an option to purchase a single model subscription which is much, much less expensive than the other options. Still not cheap.

Most other automakers only offer “all or nothing” plans.

it is my understanding that as part of the OBD laws, manufacturers are compelled to provide repair information. They can charge whatever they want AFAIK.

It will be interesting to see what Rivian charges for technical service information. I’ll definitely buy myself a week or a month for curiosity's sake.

here’s the solution to turbo problems:

https://www.pureturbos.com/product/bmw-n20-stg2/

BMW is all or nothing. If BMW would offer it on a per model or VIN basis at a reasonable price - say $10 - $15 a month, I'd gladly subscribe, and I think they would probably increase their overall revenue.

My daughter has a tough decision to make on the turbo repair. That vintage of N20 engine also had a high, catastrophic failure rate of the timing chain guides. Many below 100k miles. BMW issued an extended 7/70 warranty for that. With the mileage on it, there's a pretty high risk of putting $3k-4k into a new turbo, and then have the timing chain fail 6 months later. She drives 20k a year, a lot of it for work commuting between several different hospitals/sugical centers, so at least she has been getting mileage reimbursement to ease the financial pain a bit. If she could do without the vehicle for a couple of weeks, I could probably do the turbo replacement myself.

My younger daughter has the exact same N20 engine in her X1 with 140k and no turbo issues to date, and I think the timing chain issue was resolved by then.

 

[lostpacket]

So bootlegging of BMW ISTA-D, ISTA-P, etc. is rampant, without the online data, but it's still useful for diagnosing a problem. It's quite sophisticated - it reads the fault codes, and automatically builds a Service Plan for the service tech to follow, with many of the diagnostics being executed by ISTA-D, and telling the tech what to do based on the results.

The other issue at hand, I think, is liability. People without practical knowledge of safely servicing cars could hurt themselves or the car by using ISTA-D and ISTA-P......

Very interesting specifics, thanks for sharing. I think that gives useful context!

For the right to repair however, I don't think advocates for it are asking companies share their entire full service software suites. Rather, they want the ability just to read the fault codes and to be able to run any diagnostics the car itself can run. The idea is that 3rd parties could develop alternatives but BMW could still develop it's fancy software with Service Plans, etc.

As of now, as you say, people have pirated the software, so they are basically having to resort to illegal means just to read the codes and such.

 

[IPTV65]

I am honestly shocked more folks don’t seem to care about this. I guess ignorance is bliss and it’s easier to comment on threads about getting screwed on repair costs.

 

[electruck]

I am honestly shocked more folks don’t seem to care about this. I guess ignorance is bliss and it’s easier to comment on threads about getting screwed on repair costs.

I think it's a double edged sword. If we're not getting screwed on repair costs, then manufacturers will start jacking up the price of vehicles to compensate. Or get more creative with how they monetize the data streams coming out of the vehicles. Pick your poison.

 

[sub]

I think it's a double edged sword. If we're not getting screwed on repair costs, then manufacturers will start jacking up the price of vehicles to compensate. .

Please do this. Everyone deserves to make a reasonable profit. What is unreasonable is not being transparent about how much you are charging. Price the vehicle at whatever price is needed to make an acceptable profit and then be done with it.

Setting an artificially low initial selling price and then trying to recoup through exorbitant, unpublished, post sale fees is dishonest and scammy. It is exactly the sort of behavior that has given the term "car dealer" the negative connotation that it has. You may be car dealers, but you don't have to act like a "car dealer".

And you shouldn't be fighting laws that force you to behave in a civilized manner. You should be begging for more laws. Laws will allow you to work towards restoring your reputation without having to compete with competitors that like being shady.

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