A Case For Choosing Vinfast VF 9 Over R1S?

[Swilly]

So I have to start by saying that my use case for either of these vehicles is slightly different than most. Essentially I need a vehicle that can handle getting 4 kids around town and up to our mountain house to ski. If roads are terrible or we are going truly off-road, we have a fully capable alternative vehicle.

With the pricing and battery rental fees now available for the VF9, am I crazy to consider it over the R1S?

I don’t need the performance, necessarily. Both are 3 rows. The VF9 offers heads up display, retractable sunroof and a second row captains chair option. None of this available on Rivian. Both have similar miles per charge. Both should be available to me at roughly the same time.

My R1S is about $80K as configured. Top of line VF9 is $61K plus a max $1920/yr, but would be closer to $1000/yr for my use case. So over 8 years (Rivian battery warranty), I would be looking at $69K. As an early reservation holder you get $5K off purchase so now at $64K. Take the state and federal rebates and it’s down to about $54K. Rivian is sitting around $70K.

Here is the biggest part of this value proposition though. What if you were to take delivery of the Rivian and sell it for say $100K, and put the $30K into the VF9? Now the VF9 costs $24K! And to be clear, I do not currently have plans to sell.

Hard to choose the R1S in this case? Buy both?

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[NY_Rob]

Is Vinfast going to be built here or in Vietnam?

 

[jtshaw]

So many things we don't know about the Vinfast products. As a hedge, it's not a terrible idea to have a reservation. I think at the end of the day the R1S is more of a large 4-Runner EV and the Vinfast is probably more of a Hyundai/Kia/VW SUV competitor. Sure, it'll be cheaper. It doesn't have the fancy suspension or the incredibly powerful 4 motor AWD system the Rivian has.

 

[Swilly]

The other is made in Vietnam.
[/QUOTE]

Is Vinfast going to be built here or in Vietnam?

You are correct about that difference, for now at least. They are building a US factory in the Carolinas, but won’t be producing vehicles there until 2024 according to their website. Until then, they will be imported. I would prefer American made, but price delta may overcome that here.

 

[Swilly]

So many things we don't know about the Vinfast products. As a hedge, it's not a terrible idea to have a reservation. I think at the end of the day the R1S is more of a large 4-Runner EV and the Vinfast is probably more of a Hyundai/Kia/VW SUV competitor. Sure, it'll be cheaper. It doesn't have the fancy suspension or the incredibly powerful 4 motor AWD system the Rivian has.

To your first point, can’t we say the same about Rivian at this point? Especially the mysterious R1S?

 

[dleewla]

its not a bad idea. if you dont intend to truly off-road, which 99% of us probably wont, i'd say the quad motor, air suspension of the R1S is overkill. i know it may be overkill for me, i just want it cause its kick-ass. that said, my 2011 highlander can usually handle backroads, gravel, mud, snow with its 4-wheel drive, traction control, downhill assist.

financially it would be a no brainer to take delivery of the R1S, sell it and then get the VF9. they are both brand new manufacturers so we really dont know how reliable the vehicles will be. if anything the R1S might be more complicated and potentially lead to more issues. on the other hand, even though its a more traditional BEV, we (i) dont know much about Vinfast so thats rolling the dice as well.

 

[Swilly]

its not a bad idea. if you dont intend to truly off-road, which 99% of us probably wont, i'd say the quad motor, air suspension of the R1S is overkill. i know it may be overkill for me, i just want it cause its kick-ass. that said, my 2011 highlander can usually handle backroads, gravel, mud, snow with its 4-wheel drive, traction control, downhill assist.

financially it would be a no brainer to take delivery of the R1S, sell it and then get the VF9. they are both brand new manufacturers so we really dont know how reliable the vehicles will be. if anything the R1S might be more complicated and potentially lead to more issues. on the other hand, even though its a more traditional BEV, we (i) dont know much about Vinfast so thats rolling the dice as well.

I agree that the specs on the R1S are absurdly awesome and that and the exterior design are what most draw me back to Rivian when I get these thoughts in my head.

I am planning on keeping my Land Cruiser for true off-roading adventures.

 

[McMoo]

I have a reservation for a VF9 for my wife. She (and I) think it looks awesome and it seems to have great features (including apple car play). Realistically we probably won’t get it to complement my R1S since the EV9 or Ioniq 7 will be out from brands with a much longer history. I hope they succeed but the battery lease and being made in Vietnam may be tough sells.

 

[R1Sky Business]

I have a reservation for a VF9 for my wife. She (and I) think it looks awesome and it seems to have great features (including apple car play). Realistically we probably won’t get it to complement my R1S since the EV9 or Ioniq 7 will be out from brands with a much longer history. I hope they succeed but the battery lease and being made in Vietnam may be tough sells.

That was the belief at one point in time about vehicles from Japan...

 

[mkg3]

So I have to start by saying that my use case for either of these vehicles is slightly different than most. Essentially I need a vehicle that can handle getting 4 kids around town and up to our mountain house to ski. If roads are terrible or we are going truly off-road, we have a fully capable alternative vehicle.

With the pricing and battery rental fees now available for the VF9, am I crazy to consider it over the R1S?

I don’t need the performance, necessarily. Both are 3 rows. The VF9 offers heads up display, retractable sunroof and a second row captains chair option. None of this available on Rivian. Both have similar miles per charge. Both should be available to me at roughly the same time.

My R1S is about $80K as configured. Top of line VF9 is $61K plus a max $1920/yr, but would be closer to $1000/yr for my use case. So over 8 years (Rivian battery warranty), I would be looking at $69K. As an early reservation holder you get $5K off purchase so now at $64K. Take the state and federal rebates and it’s down to about $54K. Rivian is sitting around $70K.

Here is the biggest part of this value proposition though. What if you were to take delivery of the Rivian and sell it for say $100K, and put the $30K into the VF9? Now the VF9 costs $24K! And to be clear, I do not currently have plans to sell.

Hard to choose the R1S in this case? Buy both?

I guess if all that matter was the initial outlay, then this argument is a slam dunk.

I recall the history of Japanese cars, then Korean cars. I would say the initially, these vehicles were cheaper to buy but much more expensive to maintain due to reliability issues. Today that's not the case at all.

The issue is that, culturally, us Americans expect so much more in terms of after care than many of our peers in some of these asian countries. In other words, they tend to live with all the lack of stellar service compared to us and not do much about it. For all new foreign entrants, It takes for a while to set up the service or dealer network outside of metropolitan cities.

I see that you live in CO, so I wonder where the service and repair center will be for your community? I'm in SoCal and I expect it would be much more readily available than in the middle of the country, even as large as Denver area is. It is all likely that they will set up a service center in LA and NY first, followed by SF, Chicago and maybe Seattle and DC area. Over the coming years, if they are still around, will continue to subsequent market areas.

Today, there are multiple entrants from China and now Vietnam coming to our shores. It will take a while for these companies to establish themselves in US. Look how long it has taken Tesla and now Rivian struggling to set up service centers and after market care. Their HQs are in US and decisions are made here. Will the Chines and the Vietnamese companies make decisions here? Given their nature, not likely until some time later.

So back to your original focus of purchase price. Just keep in mind what is your time and aggravation worth it to you, in an event you experience it? Given that the company has no track record in US and US regulations AND a brand new EV product, the likelihood of trouble free experience is highly unlikely, I believe.

Personally, unless the cost is significantly out of range to its peers, I buy what I like and want rather than shop for price, since I will live the product day-in, day-out for few years.

YMMV..... Cheers!

 

[Swilly]

I guess if all that matter was the initial outlay, then this argument is a slam dunk.

I recall the history of Japanese cars, then Korean cars. I would say the initially, these vehicles were cheaper to buy but much more expensive to maintain due to reliability issues. Today that's not the case at all.

The issue is that, culturally, us Americans expect so much more in terms of after care than many of our peers in some of these asian countries. In other words, they tend to live with all the lack of stellar service compared to us and not do much about it. For all new foreign entrants, It takes for a while to set up the service or dealer network outside of metropolitan cities.

I see that you live in CO, so I wonder where the service and repair center will be for your community? I'm in SoCal and I expect it would be much more readily available than in the middle of the country, even as large as Denver area is. It is all likely that they will set up a service center in LA and NY first, followed by SF, Chicago and maybe Seattle and DC area. Over the coming years, if they are still around, will continue to subsequent market areas.

Today, there are multiple entrants from China and now Vietnam coming to our shores. It will take a while for these companies to establish themselves in US. Look how long it has taken Tesla and now Rivian struggling to set up service centers and after market care. Their HQs are in US and decisions are made here. Will the Chines and the Vietnamese companies make decisions here? Given their nature, not likely until some time later.

So back to your original focus of purchase price. Just keep in mind what is your time and aggravation worth it to you, in an event you experience it? Given that the company has no track record in US and US regulations AND a brand new EV product, the likelihood of trouble free experience is highly unlikely, I believe.

Personally, unless the cost is significantly out of range to its peers, I buy what I like and want rather than shop for price, since I will live the product day-in, day-out for few years.

YMMV..... Cheers!
.

[/QUOTE]

I appreciate your well thought out response.

I am unclear on what Rivian has done that makes you think they stand a better chance of 1) making it as an auto company 2) making a better product 3) making a more reliable product 4) having better customer service and repair?

So far what I have seen from Rivian is horrible business decisions (pricing fiasco), delays, quality issues with product being sent to customers, unclear communication, numerous unknowns (subscription price, details on R1S, production numbers etc), more delays, excuses, and a product with absolutely amazing performance. They do seem to have repair facilities in the major cities, and most importantly for me in Denver.

Vinfast on the other hand, has pumped out more cars in Vietnam than Rivian has here in a shorter period of time, has plans for hundreds of physical locations in US (60 in CA), are pledging to use high quality components and offer a 10 year/125,000 mile warranty (Rivian is 5 years/60,000 with 8 years on drivetrain). In fairness, this is all on paper and actions speak louder than words, so we will have to wait and see. But I don’t think we can judge them any more than we can really judge Rivian’s long term quality and prospects at this point in time.

I can only assume that this perspective is mainly based on Vinfast being relatively new and a foreign manufacturer. Only difference with Rivian is that they are domestic. Rivian has even less experience than Vinfast though.

So for me it’s not just about the cheapest, even though that is niceit’s about buying what I need and getting good value and reliability after that purchase. I am not yet sure if that is the Rivian or the Vinfast product, but I don’t think anyone can answer that right now.

And to close this out, I am still more of a Rivian fan and hope they get my R1S in my driveway before the vinfast is available. That would probably be enough to seal the deal for Rivian.

 

[Attesan997]

As a VF8 pre-order holder even I'm skeptical on a battery leasing model. I'll have to do the math when full pricing is announced as of now its a $41k starting MSRP. Assuming that there's no nickle and diming, and the final pricing is around the 40s it's not really a crazy amount cheaper than its competitors. Ionic 5 may be slightly more expensive when you add in AWD but with the VF8 you add in the monthly battery fee and it's more even. When all is said and done I'm not sure the VF8 does anything better than competitors but potentially be cheaper.

In terms of VF9, I'm not sure there are many 3 Row BEV direct competitors that are planned ot be on sale in 2022. I hesistate to call the R1S a competitor but sure I guess they're both 3 rows. A 90k R1S is beat by the cheaper VF9 for sure if the need is just to have the 3rd row room.

 

[Taycanfrank]

To your first point, can’t we say the same about Rivian at this point? Especially the mysterious R1S?

What's mysterious about the R1S? It's the R1T with a shorter wheelbase and a lid. There is nothing else meaningfully different about it.

 

[LaunchGreen]

I see people mentioning vehicles from Japan here, however, I view it a little differently as I don't believe we've ever had a major car company succeed in the west being based in an authoritarian state. Of course, the world is changing as companies like DJI have done really well.

It's personal choice, but I already try to avoid purchasing items from non-free countries. Yes, it's nearly impossible - particularly with clothing and electronics - but sometimes you can get half way. I can say that when I manage to find U.S. (or Canada or German) manufacturers of items they tend to be like something from a different era - high quality and last forever.

https://freedomhouse.org/country/vietnam/freedom-world/2021

I'm not value-hunting in this vehicle purchase at all, so I'm going to continue to roll with our Illinois, California and soon to be Texas friends.

 

[Swilly]

What's mysterious about the R1S? It's the R1T with a shorter wheelbase and a lid. There is nothing else meaningfully different about it.

Thanks for your input. Might be the case for you, but not for me. I like to know what I am buying and all 3 rows matter to me for various reasons. That’s like saying if you test drive a Tacoma, there is no reason to ask any questions at all about the 4Runner you are about to buy.
Just a few of the mysteries:
1) No reviews
2) No deliveries to customers
3) No clear understanding of whether middle row seats slide, tilt, etc. for car seats
4) 3rd row comfort unclear.
5) Not an option at first drive events. Different wheelbase = different drive dynamics.
6) tailgate operation and functionality.
7) Understanding of usable storage space.

All this could be solved with a few reviews or making the vehicle available for first drive events.

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