New to forums and Rivian - want to discuss my pre-purchase concerns

[getut]

You started with a "Nah" even though you didn't really argue against anything I said. You did list some fine exceptions, and examples where the law leans towards consumer's rights, which I agree with you on both. You also talked mostly about hardware, where I was focused on software, as that was core to your prior complaints.

There are laws that truly regulate hardware, mostly contract law and IP law. There are some areas of IP that do affect HW that you purchase. For example, you can remove the badging, but you might not be able to legally modify it in some ways that might weaken a trademark. You might purchase something under law or contract that prohibits or limits what you can modify or how you can or can't use or resell it, and these can be binding in court. A legal example is emissions equipment that cannot be tampered with. A contractual example is when I bought my Mach-e under a Ford X-plan contract, it limited how soon I could resell it to anyone other than back to an authorized Ford dealer (it could not be bought just to be resold). Warranties themselves are contractual limitations on what is and is not allowed in the way of usage or modification of the hardware and software, with loss of warranty aspects when violated. Yes, you can say it is your choice to void the warranty, but it is the same as paying additional value (loss of warranty coverage) for the right to change something you legally owned.

I still think the core of your arguments regarding what is wrong with EVs and connected vehicles and such are 1) primarily based on privacy issues and software practices, and 2) are really best regulated issues by strengthened privacy laws. The biggest problem trying to persuade business to change practices in these areas is that you (and I) are a very small minority of customers that either care to demand better practices, where most, even many who do care about these issues do not care enough to give up the benefits they perceive coming from the practices. For example, capturing driving data is a huge violation of privacy, but it is also quite necessary to improve the vehicle, especially for safer and more accurate and more comfortable autonomy. Most people do not adequately value their privacy.

These practices and the comfort of people who don't understand are why I think there has to be some pushback. I would never advocate for these things to be taken away, but I do think requiring any connected device from vacuums to vehicles to use cloud services as the only path needs to be corrected. I think the ability to lock out manufacturers from a thing you buy should be enshrined in regulatory protection. Meaning all devices should be forced to provide a local API FIRST, and then cloud services as an opt in only for people who don't want to bother setting up VPNs and everything so they can still control their equipment on the go. Buying a thing should never have to imply trust in the company. Privacy and security should also NEVER be just simply trust the company not to do things with your data. The ability for full technical lockout should always be an option for anyone that cares about security. For the Rivian that means either allowing a root level firewall app or not having the system flake out if you disable the 4G/5G and force it to go through a router/firewall completely under the owners control.

To respond more to the mileage question and the people that have asked me about that. I already own an EV so I am aware of the usage of them. I am using rated mileage as the issue and here is the statement I made in another thread that may make this clearer:

I think 300'ish miles is good for a car, but not for a pickup truck. Heck I just bought an equinox EV that is rated for 318 miles and it gets very close to that without even having to work at it. I'm also shopping between Rivian and the Silverado EV. But for trucks that are used as trucks for real work, I think a solid 400 mile rating with a full battery is the absolute bare minimum. Not because I use 400 miles in optimal conditions, but because I need the range boost in NON-optimal conditions. 400 miles with just me my family and luggage is more than I can sit in the truck. BUT when you consider possibly worst case conditions with 10 years of age on the battery (I keep vehicles forever), super cold weather while possibly also towing, then vehicles that are in the 300 mile or less range would almost have to be recharged just getting out of my driveway. So stated another way, I consider 175 miles the absolute least mileage I will live with under ANY conditions or usage scenario.

I don't want the size of the silverado, but I'm just not getting a warm squishy that Rivian's can reach the rated 420 miles unless you are working your arse off hypermiling while also getting "lucky" and getting stuck in slow traffic. GM seems to a MUCH better job with their EPA ratings and reaching EPA while at constant 70MPH highway speeds is easy and takes no effort beyond "just drive". I just posted a welcome in main thread yesterday voicing some of those questions. I was really hoping people would chime in, especially on the mileage aspect and tell me they were getting vastly different results than what I have read.. but that didn't happen. People are confirming 420 is very difficult to reach in the rivians that are rated for it.

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[mkhuffman]

These practices and the comfort of people who don't understand are why I think there has to be some pushback. I would never advocate for these things to be taken away, but I do think requiring any connected device from vacuums to vehicles to use cloud services as the only path needs to be corrected. I think the ability to lock out manufacturers from a thing you buy should be enshrined in regulatory protection. Meaning all devices should be forced to provide a local API FIRST, and then cloud services as an opt in only for people who don't want to bother setting up VPNs and everything so they can still control their equipment on the go. Buying a thing should never have to imply trust in the company. Privacy and security should also NEVER be just simply trust the company not to do things with your data. The ability for full technical lockout should always be an option for anyone that cares about security. For the Rivian that means either allowing a root level firewall app or not having the system flake out if you disable the 4G/5G and force it to go through a router/firewall completely under the owners control.

To respond more to the mileage question and the people that have asked me about that. I already own an EV so I am aware of the usage of them. I am using rated mileage as the issue and here is the statement I made in another thread that may make this clearer:

I think 300'ish miles is good for a car, but not for a pickup truck. Heck I just bought an equinox EV that is rated for 318 miles and it gets very close to that without even having to work at it. I'm also shopping between Rivian and the Silverado EV. But for trucks that are used as trucks for real work, I think a solid 400 mile rating with a full battery is the absolute bare minimum. Not because I use 400 miles in optimal conditions, but because I need the range boost in NON-optimal conditions. 400 miles with just me my family and luggage is more than I can sit in the truck. BUT when you consider possibly worst case conditions with 10 years of age on the battery (I keep vehicles forever), super cold weather while possibly also towing, then vehicles that are in the 300 mile or less range would almost have to be recharged just getting out of my driveway. So stated another way, I consider 175 miles the absolute least mileage I will live with under ANY conditions or usage scenario.

I don't want the size of the silverado, but I'm just not getting a warm squishy that Rivian's can reach the rated 420 miles unless you are working your arse off hypermiling while also getting "lucky" and getting stuck in slow traffic. GM seems to a MUCH better job with their EPA ratings and reaching EPA while at constant 70MPH highway speeds is easy and takes no effort beyond "just drive". I just posted a welcome in main thread yesterday voicing some of those questions. I was really hoping people would chime in, especially on the mileage aspect and tell me they were getting vastly different results than what I have read.. but that didn't happen. People are confirming 420 is very difficult to reach in the rivians that are rated for it.

I have achieved 3 mi/kWh (EPA range efficiency) when driving at speeds of 50-60 mph.

The fact is the R1 is much more efficient than the GM products, and consequently environmental variables have a bigger impact. It's hard to beat a massive 205 kWh battery.

 

[skyguyscott]

I share the OP's root concerns about privacy and ownership of what you buy. The core issues will not be solved in the unregulated free market, but only by government regulation, i.e. the heavy handed threat of fines and jail-time for violations, unfortunately. Europe is ahead of the US in this regard.

Given the deep entrenchment of corporate interests in our current system of government in the US, my hopes and expectations of progress in this area are limited, but I'll help you push.

Ironically, due to the lack of government support in the EV industry, China has pulled ahead in EV (and thus also in automotive) technology, and may well eventually overtake US manufacturers, in much the same way foreign companies eventually overtook the US electronics industry. Ford, GM, Chrysler may eventually go the way of Magnavox, RCA, Quasar, and Admiral. If China succeeds in achieving domination over the automotive sector, our hopes of maintaining or enforcing any privacy and control will diminish by orders of magnitude.

 

[getut]

I have achieved 3 mi/kWh (EPA range efficiency) when driving at speeds of 50-60 mph.

The fact is the R1 is much more efficient than the GM products, and consequently environmental variables have a bigger impact. It's hard to beat a massive 205 kWh battery.

I wish efficiency was the extent of the care for me, but it is truly about having range in the worst of conditions where I care about it, and my vehicles see the worst conditions pretty often. 400+ miles is more than I could ever hope to use without food and bathroom breaks, but its that combination of age degradation, cold weather, and towing all put together that are my concerns. I want the vehicle to still have usable range in the worst conditions after I've had it 10 years. And a vehicle that seems to be struggling to hit EPA range at highway speeds means they probably fudged the numbers quite dramatically. The Silverado's meet EPA range even on the 70MPH tests. That isn't a product of efficiency, just battery size and stating the real world range for highway. I just don't want that large of a vehicle so am trying everything I can to justify the Rivian. But again, I have to actually compare the Rivian that is rated for 420 as a more reality based figure of 370'ish when comparing against the Silverados. But then potentially halving (or at least 60%) that for brutal cold and then potentially halving again while towing and sub 400 mile EV's will not have a usable range. I wont even be able to make it between chargers with some of the places I go and I jokingly state that any EV with sub 400 mile range will barely make it out of my driveway without charging again in the worst of conditions. We primarily stay in the mountains anywhere from GA, to Maine and even up into Canada though I am centered in NC. We very rarely go coastal unless it is for work or go where the mountains meet the coast up in Maine. I think the Rivian is overall a better truck than the silverado other than privacy and security and the range (Silverado isnt even better on the privacy and security side, only the range). I am having trouble working through that for my justifications. Again, I really dont want a vehicle as large as the silverado but I have to have that range. And I also absolutely refuse to go back to any type of ICE engine even an EREV. I never want to do another engine oil change in my life and I really like how EV's dont run you to the dealership to be nicle and dimed. So anything with a combustion engine is out for me.

 

[BaldThunder]

A good read about battery longevity and how/why they are lasting much longer than expected:

https://www.iowapublicradio.org/new...g-do-electric-vehicle-batteries-actually-last

 

[getut]

A good read about battery longevity and how/why they are lasting much longer than expected:

https://www.iowapublicradio.org/new...g-do-electric-vehicle-batteries-actually-last

Yes, I know they last much longer than people originally anticipated, but my point was even though they last longer, the range still degrades over time and short of a too costly failure, I keep my vehicles until that too costly failure actually happens. Most of the time it is 10 years plus in my vehicle history and that is my time with it even if it started as a used vehicle purchase with miles and time already on them.

 

[mkhuffman]

I wish efficiency was the extent of the care for me, but it is truly about having range in the worst of conditions where I care about it, and my vehicles see the worst conditions pretty often. 400+ miles is more than I could ever hope to use without food and bathroom breaks, but its that combination of age degradation, cold weather, and towing all put together that are my concerns. I want the vehicle to still have usable range in the worst conditions after I've had it 10 years. And a vehicle that seems to be struggling to hit EPA range at highway speeds means they probably fudged the numbers quite dramatically. The Silverado's meet EPA range even on the 70MPH tests. That isn't a product of efficiency, just battery size and stating the real world range for highway. I just don't want that large of a vehicle so am trying everything I can to justify the Rivian. But again, I have to actually compare the Rivian that is rated for 420 as a more reality based figure of 370'ish when comparing against the Silverados. But then potentially halving (or at least 60%) that for brutal cold and then potentially halving again while towing and sub 400 mile EV's will not have a usable range. I wont even be able to make it between chargers with some of the places I go and I jokingly state that any EV with sub 400 mile range will barely make it out of my driveway without charging again in the worst of conditions. We primarily stay in the mountains anywhere from GA, to Maine and even up into Canada though I am centered in NC. We very rarely go coastal unless it is for work or go where the mountains meet the coast up in Maine. I think the Rivian is overall a better truck than the silverado other than privacy and security and the range (Silverado isnt even better on the privacy and security side, only the range). I am having trouble working through that for my justifications. Again, I really dont want a vehicle as large as the silverado but I have to have that range. And I also absolutely refuse to go back to any type of ICE engine even an EREV. I never want to do another engine oil change in my life and I really like how EV's dont run you to the dealership to be nicle and dimed. So anything with a combustion engine is out for me.

Then you want the biggest battery available, which narrows it down to one of the GM offerings. I personally think the GMC Denali is awesome. I prefer the size and efficiency of the R1T.

I am hoping the Gen3 R1T finally delivers the 180 kWh battery they promoted when they first revealed the truck a few years ago. They got to 400 miles with a smaller battery, which makes it easier to reach that key financial break even point, but I really wish they had offered a 180 kWh version. I am willing to pay more for it. Maybe you are also.

If they increase the Max Pack to 180 kWh, they will really need 800V charging. Which is probably another reason they went with a 141 kWh instead. It takes a little under 40 minutes to go from 10 to 80% on a DCFC, which to me is hitting the limit of what is acceptable. It is still good, but definitely not industry leading. I will say it is MUCH better than what I got in my Mach-e with a smaller battery.

 

[BaldThunder]

Yes, I know they last much longer than people originally anticipated, but my point was even though they last longer, the range still degrades over time and short of a too costly failure, I keep my vehicles until that too costly failure actually happens. Most of the time it is 10 years plus in my vehicle history and that is my time with it even if it started as a used vehicle purchase with miles and time already on them.

I believe the article, which is essentially a transcript of the audio piece they aired, said that they expect batteries to last as long as the vehicle is on the road, having seen multiple vehicles cross 200K with their original batteries.

 

[BaldThunder]

Yes, I know they last much longer than people originally anticipated, but my point was even though they last longer, the range still degrades over time and short of a too costly failure, I keep my vehicles until that too costly failure actually happens. Most of the time it is 10 years plus in my vehicle history and that is my time with it even if it started as a used vehicle purchase with miles and time already on them.

"
But based on their community, among EVs that are 10 years old or older, only 8.5% have ever had a battery replacement. More than 90% of them are still on their original battery.

"EV batteries are holding up phenomenally well," Najman says.

Recurrent has also looked at EVs of any age that have more than 150,000 miles on them, which provides a closer look at the effects of that cyclical aging. There, too, the batteries outperformed expectations.

"Cars with 150,000 miles or more, and that have not had battery replacements, are getting at least 83% of their original range," Najman says."

 

[getut]

"
But based on their community, among EVs that are 10 years old or older, only 8.5% have ever had a battery replacement. More than 90% of them are still on their original battery.

"EV batteries are holding up phenomenally well," Najman says.

Recurrent has also looked at EVs of any age that have more than 150,000 miles on them, which provides a closer look at the effects of that cyclical aging. There, too, the batteries outperformed expectations.

"Cars with 150,000 miles or more, and that have not had battery replacements, are getting at least 83% of their original range," Najman says."

Exactly, you may be misreading and thinking I am arguing with you at least about the content of what you are saying. I am aware that batteries are lasting longer than anticipated. I am just saying that even after 10 years have elapsed, I demand more than 150 miles of range in even the very worst possible conditions. That means 10 years of degradation (that 83% of original range you mentioned), combined with cold weather, and also combined with towing. Basically I demand 2 hours of driving time at highway speeds even in those conditions. That doesnt change what you said or make it false, it just makes it irrelevant to what my argument is because I'm not arguing they dont have range. I'm not arguing that the battery degradation isn't as harsh as people originally planned, but I AM arguing that degradation still plays into my calculation and that is a truck that still has 2 hours of driving at highway speeds even in those absolute worst conditions after 10 years of degradation.

 

[mkhuffman]

Exactly, you may be misreading and thinking I am arguing with you at least about the content of what you are saying. I am aware that batteries are lasting longer than anticipated. I am just saying that even after 10 years have elapsed, I demand more than 150 miles of range in even the very worst possible conditions. That means 10 years of degradation (that 83% of original range you mentioned), combined with cold weather, and also combined with towing. Basically I demand 2 hours of driving time at highway speeds even in those conditions. That doesnt change what you said or make it false, it just makes it irrelevant to what my argument is because I'm not arguing they dont have range. I'm not arguing that the battery degradation isn't as harsh as people originally planned, but I AM arguing that degradation still plays into my calculation and that is a truck that still has 2 hours of driving at highway speeds even in those absolute worst conditions after 10 years of degradation.

 

[freshpow]

Can we fix the title? “New to forums and Rivian - want to argue about my pre-purchase concerns”

Just go buy something else.

 

[tbinmd]

at least there's a user ignore button.

 

[slillie]

Hello everyone, new forum user here and hoping to get some discussions going to help ease my concerns with these cars. I have been HEAVILY researching in the weeds for many months now and am getting close to pulling the trigger, but these lingering issues still concern me if I end up going with Rivian. I work in IT security, so many of my issues are related to that but also some pretty deep, in the weeds issues as well since I am a research junkie and I work on and hack all of my stuff. So with that said.. here we go. I apologize this will likely be long. I also want to state I come at a lot of these potential issues from the viewpoint of someone who does not lease and typically holds on to vehicles at least 10 years. Other than these issues that I list, Rivian is at the top of my list, but I do feel like I'm forcing it given these potential issues but driving one of these makes me not think clearly with all that power.

1) Range issues. I don't have a warm squishy that Rivian has done a good job with their EPA range estimates and that is the #1 most critical feature to me. I use my trucks for real truck work, so I consider 400 miles in optimal conditions the absolute bare minimum for a truck. Not because I use 400 mile range, but because I use more than what lesser EPA ranges would reduce to in LESS than optimal conditions. When you consider about 60% range loss in cold weather and another 60% if towing, that puts it at around 150 miles usable and even less with 10 years of wear on the battery. So that 400 mile starting point is the absolute least range that I can live with. But my concern is that Rivian has fudged this. Unlike the Silverado EV that seems to always easily hit EPA estimates even at 70MPH constant, I don't get the feeling that the Rivians can do that. I REALLY hope someone tells me different. The 420 mile range seems to be doable when a significant amount of slower driving is involved. I have not yet found where Rivians can do that 420 mile range on a

2) Not a deal breaker but close to it. I am prepared to do work arounds if I decide on the Rivian, but not happy about it. But the Rivians NEED a split phase 240v outlet. Proprietary V2H systems are not acceptable. Pure stock 240v outlet that works with no proprietary system at all. The most proprietary system I would willingly accept is a charging port dongle with 240v split phase on it.

3) Severe concerns over regen limitations. I watched closely for years on out of spec reviews with people talking about it and demonstrating it compared to other EV trucks. I spend a large portion of my time in the mountains on very steep hills. A truck that limits regen in 2 minutes or less of downhill even when not towing are a real concern and with someone in the mountains as much as me, it is leaving a large amount of free charging on the table with a truck that wont regen properly. I really want to hear that they got it resolved with gen 2, but I have not found a smoking gun to say they have. It still seems more like, "we made some tweaks that made it a little better but it still exists" type thing. That one very much is a deal breaker for me. I hear this issue is also potentially strongly related to 2 other issues that I have ever only heard of with Rivian EV's. Eating up tires very quickly because the overheat or whatever it is seems to be strongly focused on the front motor since their settings make this one do 90% or more of the regen rather than using both front and back motors. Somehow this also seems to play into the fact that Rivians seem to be eating brakes faster than any other EV I have researched. Have any of these issues seen fixes that I am unaware of? See this interesting video on the regen issue research.

4) Security and Privacy concerns about the connectivity on the vehicle. This one will likely tweak some people who trust too much, but being an IT security worker I have large problems with devices that are always connected to the manufacturer. Would love if there was an open LOCAL API for communicating with the truck. First and foremost, every system on the planet that cares about security uses a trust no one model. That means not even trusting the manufacturer and keeping it firewalled or airgapped until there is a documented need. Full time access to my vehicle will not be allowed by anyone other than me as the owner. I have real trouble knowing that this system has cameras that watch everything that get sent back to Rivian. I would love a way to run this truck with 4G/5G completely and utterly disabled at the hardware level and then run it through a combo 4g/4g hotspot with firewall that is under MY control to make sure it only communicates when and with entities that I am aware of and approve only when there is a documented need. But with that said, I find the built in dashcam immensely helpful and usable. It just wont happen if the only way to use it requires having to ask permission from servers that I don't control to get someone elses access approval to something that I own and exists behind my firewall. My wife drives an equinox EV and we have teh telematics module hardware capped off and do the same with the equinox and block it from accessing GM, but the equinox does not have anything like the dashcam feature on the Rivians. I am just not OK with the system sending photos and video about my movements away from home or at home in a way that a bad employee at Rivian could use to do bad things. And 90% of breaches are from insiders. I don't trust Rivian or any company to control my devices for me. What functionality would I lose if I completely disable built in connectivity at a hardware level and run it through a firewall that I control?

5) Durability for the long haul. I don't lease. I keep vehicles for 10 years or better. But Rivian is scaring me just a little with repeated issues like half shafts that keep failing. Will this vehicle eat me alive in costs after the warranty goes out?

6) Can I stream video like netflix, amazon prime and youtube to the infotainment system while charging?

7) Is there any confirmed way to sideload apps on the infotainment system. This is more of that, I refuse to submit to what they say I should have. If the app is physically able to run on the infotainment system, it should be allowed and no one should be able to decide that other than the owner. Walled garden ecosystems are never not a$$tastic. I'm OK with making add on apps only usable while parked, but beyond that, its not their decision.

8) Lack of brake blending and true two pedal mode. This is one of the things i vastly like better about the GM ev's. GM tunes their EV's so that when in 2 pedal mode, the default regen pretty closely simulates the engine braking of a gas car. Then the 1st half of brake pedal increases that regen until max until it starts blending in friction brakes. I think this allows much more granularity of regen, because COASTING is more efficient than even regen. Two pedal mode makes coasting much easier with the same amount of regen available if you want it. It's amazing how many people think that single pedal mode is the only way to get regen. Maybe that is true with Rivian, but not with most others.

Things I like about the vehicle and praise them for.

1) NOT encrypting the CAN bus. Another component that has popped up with IoT in the last 10 years or so is companies clamping down on hardware and using those clamp downs as a way to artificially cripple functionality so that it can be sold back to you piece by piece.

2) Giving tons of info for geeks on the infotainment system

3) Usable size of the trucks. Not too big, not too small. Bed could be larger, but overall its in a sweet spot for overall truck size. They are beautiful trucks with immense power and fun to drive and easily the most capable off road of all the EV trucks. I go off road in the mountains very frequently.

Sorry for the long post, but this is a ton of money. I am leaning toward Rivian but really want good answers on some of these before I will be able to fully commit.

You should send this list of your requirements to Rivian. I'm sure they will get a good laugh out of it. Good luck in your EV search.

 

[BaldThunder]

Exactly, you may be misreading and thinking I am arguing with you at least about the content of what you are saying. I am aware that batteries are lasting longer than anticipated. I am just saying that even after 10 years have elapsed, I demand more than 150 miles of range in even the very worst possible conditions. That means 10 years of degradation (that 83% of original range you mentioned), combined with cold weather, and also combined with towing. Basically I demand 2 hours of driving time at highway speeds even in those conditions. That doesnt change what you said or make it false, it just makes it irrelevant to what my argument is because I'm not arguing they dont have range. I'm not arguing that the battery degradation isn't as harsh as people originally planned, but I AM arguing that degradation still plays into my calculation and that is a truck that still has 2 hours of driving at highway speeds even in those absolute worst conditions after 10 years of degradation.

Aha. Thanks for the clarification. I'm concerned you won't find the answer you are looking for in an EV, at least not yet. Plus, you know, chances are, if manufacturers realize they are making their batteries too robust, they will reduce their durability and longevity so they can either save money or make the cars slightly more affordable.

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