Rivain R1T vs Ford Lightning F-150

[TessP100D]

I hope not to keep them out of Texas, until after the F-150 Lightening starts production in the spring of 2022. Texas is Ford Country, and they want it to stay that way, or at least I would if it were up to me. Not good for me though, if it were to be true. I see where Rivian is most likely shipping first, which may not include some southern states, where Ford has good sales. No southern states at all, so far. Maybe there will be notice to some tomorrow.

I've seen some members here with order numbers higher than mine, that have been contacted by their guides. Congratulations to them all. However, there will be some Texans that will switch to Ford, if the F-150 Lightening becomes available to them before the Rivian.

Prove me wrong Rivian. Send some R1T Silver/Blk Mtn to Texas soon!

Ford may have always been big in Texas, but you do understand that a big factory is being built in Texas right now and will make a EV truck that goes 500 plus miles?

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[ElectricDan]

Ford hasn't even disclosed what size battery the vehicle has, nor it's price.

As much as we know... I'd say there's more that we don't considering those are pretty big pieces of information. I just find it strange that Ford announces the range of this vehicle at it's unveiling and then they sprinkle in this new EPA estimation based on a 1,000lb load limit, which seems unusual because it's not something that we've really seen as commonplace when it comes to speculation on range of other electric vehicles.

I kind of laughed because I think to myself there was a time I took a road trip with five people in my Model S with all of our luggage, probably pretty close to a 1,000lbs. I don't really remembering any noticeable difference in my range. Maybe it's a gimmick? Who knows? I'm just very surprised how that information came about.

But again, I don't think Ford's tax credit is going to even be in existence very long due fleet/commercial sales for their base model electric truck. Your regular every day truck owner is going to have to compete for those 250k units that may be spoken for quite early on.

Probably why we're hearing all this discussion about a new $2,500 Made in America tax credit, and coupled with that a $2,500 union worker tax credit because Ford knows that they're credit won't last long and these new initiatives will definitely benefit them and keep their products favorable in the eyes of consumers looking for EV tax credits.

Ford doesn't have a made to order model that Rivian, Tesla, and other EV manufacturers are committed to. Ford builds in bulk (and has to), sells to dealers, fleets services, etc. and vehicles will sit on lots waiting for buyers. 250k trucks come and go quickly with all those potential buyers.

The lightning does have some pretty appealing qualities, but the XLT jumps the price $13,000 (53k) and that doesn't include the extended battery. Let us know how much the extended battery costs and then maybe we can start talking about how competitive the Lightning will be at its price point.

This could very well be why so many legacy auto manufacturers don't disclose their battery pack kilowatt size. All of these batteries are sourced by third-party companies and their pricing is something that is fairly consistent as far as the market goes. More so nobody is making batteries exponentially cheaper than anybody else and the battery pack being one of the greatest cost for these vehicles tells a great deal. If you know who's making the batteries, and you know the size of the pack, you can then reasonably estimate what the price and margins will be.

If Ford were to disclosed that its to pack sizes for the Lightning were 150kWh and 200kWh would their range estimates be as impressive to everyone? I feel like there's something more that we don't know yet, and that something is important.

I can say is I do love the frunk of the lightning, and it's subtle aesthetic accents that differentiated from regular F-150 while still holding true to the overall look of the brand and vehicle.

It is a very interesting vehicle, and I did love my F-150 Platinum when I had it. I can say that that was the best truck I've ever had... So far! ?

R1T can't come soon enough!

Rivian hasn't disclosed their battery size either.

Also many fleets and municipalities won't qualify for the tax credit as they often don't have federal income tax to offset... they have a corporate tax..

 

[Autolycus]

Rivian hasn't disclosed their battery size either.

Has Ford disclosed the type of battery cell or pack architecture they will be using? (I honestly don't know, and I'm not finding anything quickly on google) I know we've seen the pack sitting in the frame (in front of POTUS Biden), but do we have any more information about the pack design or component cells?

Even if Rivian has backed away from specifically listing the capacity of different vehicle options, it has at least disclosed that they'll use 2170 size cylinder cells. They've also disclosed other details of the pack like that the cells will be double-stacked in the battery pack:

https://insideevs.com/news/341053/it-seems-rivian-r1t-truck-houses-a-2170-double-stack-battery-pack/

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/riv...-in-the-world-thanks-to-its-cooling-strategy/

 

[cc84]

Ford may have always been big in Texas, but you do understand that a big factory is being built in Texas right now and will make a EV truck that goes 500 plus miles?

If you're referring to the Tesla CyberTruck, I am aware. However, Ford doesn't have a seat on Tesla's board, but they do at Rivian. It may not have any meaning at all, regarding deliveries to Texas. I hope not. When I see the time frame guides start contacting Texans, then I'll know for sure.

 

[ElectricDan]

Has Ford disclosed the type of battery cell or pack architecture they will be using? (I honestly don't know, and I'm not finding anything quickly on google) I know we've seen the pack sitting in the frame (in front of POTUS Biden), but do we have any more information about the pack design or component cells?

Even if Rivian has backed away from specifically listing the capacity of different vehicle options, it has at least disclosed that they'll use 2170 size cylinder cells. They've also disclosed other details of the pack like that the cells will be double-stacked in the battery pack:

https://insideevs.com/news/341053/it-seems-rivian-r1t-truck-houses-a-2170-double-stack-battery-pack/

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/riv...-in-the-world-thanks-to-its-cooling-strategy/

I've seen a more recent video that breaks it down but I can't find it right now. Here's an article that talks briefly about it. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-battery-tech-cobalt/

It's basically a low cobalt, pouch style battery by SK innovations. Ford has said they'd release exact battery size with usable and unused size of the pack prior to production.

 

[ja_kub_sz]

Rivian hasn't disclosed their battery size either.

Also many fleets and municipalities won't qualify for the tax credit as they often don't have federal income tax to offset... they have a corporate tax..

I feel like you're missing my point. It's the volume of sales that's gonna kill the consumer EV credit for Ford (which is how the law is written).

Who Claims the Tax Credit?

"According to Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimates, between FY2018 and FY2022, about half of the forgone revenue associated with the plug-in EV tax credit will be for corporations claiming the credit. This could be businesses purchasing EVs. This also could be instances where sellers are claiming the credit for vehicles sold or leased to tax-exempt entities."

S-corps qualify, auto manufacturers qualify (leases), hell even tax exempt organizations qualify for the EV credit.

The plug-in EV credit phases out once a vehicle
manufacturer has sold 250,000 qualifying vehicles for use in the United States. The credit begins to phase out.

Its "vehicles sales" not credits claimed that ends the EV credit.

Just ask yourself how many Ford trucks have you seen in your own home town driven by public works employees?

I'm sure local governments will absolutely buy a whole bunch of the base model Lightning's because for them it's a massive cost savings. 9a-5p PW uses them and then plugs them in for 14-16hrs. It's perfect for local government.

Not too mention Ford's long standing preferred and best customer is local government paying top dollar (with our taxes) for their/your local fleet vehicles.

250k isn't that hard of a number to hit... So again probably why Ford wants the "Union Credit" and "Made in American Credit" to again give people a reason to buy their vehicles as opposed to let's say a Rivian R1T.

I wouldn't mind getting a 10k credit for my R1T come 2022 though.

 

[cwoodcox]

I'm sure local governments will absolutely buy a whole bunch of the base model Lightning's because for them it's a massive cost savings. 9a-5p PW uses them and then plugs them in for 14-16hrs. It's perfect for local government.

Not to mention the stark difference in maintenance costs. They spend a lot keeping those trucks running smoothly, in labor and in excess fleet units to cover for downtime. Both will be less with the EV.

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